JUGGERNAUT

You people need to expand your horizons beyond your lives in America. There are a CORE set of moral values & standards that are at the heart of the world's leading LIFE philosophies. That establishes the National Standard. Not your personal belief, observation, desire, or agenda. You may think you are a leading philosopher but then it seems most of you live in a dream world. No we are talking the world's LEADING LIFE philsophies. If you don't know what they are, go to the library & ask the librarian & they will be more than happy to help you Again let me remind you all the behavioral science & social science data available leads to the basic fact that by & large today's students do not mature with a good sense of ethics or morals. That reflects in society when they graduate. So to simply ignore this, or continue to blame the parents is useless. You do not solve a problem by hoping people will accept responsibility for it. The majority of parents clearly do not. So you representing society must do so. You may not like it but that's the way a democracy works. When personal responsibility fails the nation must act. Ethics & morals are not the same thing. I've tried to point this out several times but many of you either haven't had any ethics classes or simply don't get. I've had probably more of both groups than any one on this board. Ethics is geared toward individual disciplines. It doesn't even deal human psychology. Morals do. To suggest that your ethics class would be a 180 deg turn from mine is a clear indication you don't know what you're talking about. Ethics in engineering is about determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range. It discusses everything from stress limits to dollar costs for failure. It tries to impress upon the students that cutting corners to save or pocket $ has limits & you need to pay attention to them. It has nothing to do with morals, religion, or any thing else. When you think of ethics in engineering you should think more along the lines of quality assurance.

Do you know how stupid you sound to mention the Salem Witch trials? Do you ever read anything current on the subject? Let me clue you in: This was yet another prime example of politicians using religion as a tool. That's 1 half of the equation. The second half is that the crop population in that area was most likely poisoned leading to an LSD type effect for most of the population. Scientists have done research on this & when combining the research with history they found that the poison would survive the baking process of the bread & that the process itself & the preparers would be the most likely to be poisoned. Well history confirms that the main women involved in the testimony of the Salem Witch trials were indeed the prime bread makers of the area. You people really need to get over your fear of religion. It's nothing more than a fandom of a heroic ideology like everything else. Sosa fans go to Wrigley to enjoy being peed on while they cheer for a HR. Jesus fans want to pray. Sosa fans want to be seen on TV. Jesus fans want to be witnessed. I over the mysticism you people write about in relation to religion. You act like it's the boogey man. Dudes, get over the school prayer issue. Those issues have been moved to new threads. Keep up to pace in this thread! Sheesh! There are 2 new topics in the culture war thread. If you people have nothing to say, then they won't get there own threads & we'll move on. 1) FCC, Stern, & Oprah 2) Should Rumsfeld resign?

I disagree. I think tonight was a substantial improvement in the handling of Crotch. Olivo made 2 trips. Showing that he's not afraid to interrupt Crotchy. Tonight was similar to last night only in reverse. Last night he was getting all the inside corner pitches for strikes. Tonight he wasn't getting the outside corner pitches for strikes. He was beginning to unravel when Olivo calmed him down. After the 2nd trip, Koch came in on the plate just a little bit & was able to get weak hits to end the inning. I thought that was big. The pitch that went to right was a tough one to hit. It would have been called a ball as it was both too high & outside, but Tejada creamed it any way. I think Magglio should have been able to make a play because it dropped right in front of his feet. That's usually a sign of a late jump. There will be some nights when he gets both corners called for strikes & those will be the nights we don't need prep-H. But when that's not the case as long as the SOX learn how to deal with him mentally he can still be an effective closer.

Well the problem with what you mention is that all of those avenues for Christians to go to public schools & go to CCD (example) cost more $. It's kind of hard to ask a Christian to shell out double the money (which is about what it costs) to send their kids to both. Yes it's a lot less than close to 10 grand for a private school but still pretty costly. In a general sense this points to school choice & how the funds for education can be used for all schooling. In my opinion this is not as complicated to implement as one would think. But it would require adjust administrative salaries to enrollment levels of a school. Which I think is the central to school reform. I do not believe teachers are as much to blame as the administrators. If the admin toughened stanards & banned cell phones during tests cheating would be a lot harder to get away with. Getting back to implementation, you simply allow parents who send their kids to private schools to deduct the education cost from their taxes for elementary thru high school. This would be a state deduction that would then make it easier to track student enrollment per district in a state. So for 2004 the state would have a clear number of how many parents elected to send their kids to private schools for each district. That number would then lower the administrative pay for the schools in the district. This provides an incentive for those schools to reform. I remember reading that in the state of IL there is an avg of about 1 private school for every 20 schools in a district through out the state. Some have more & some have less but overall the tax revenue loss would not be substantial. Likewise the states should have the opportunity to take that total & request Federal funds to balance the books. With this system in place it would likely lead to both reform in existing schools & greater growth in private schools but not necc religious ones. To remain competitive I'm guessing that some religious schools would offer non-religious cirriculum with electives to fill out the religion classes. The key to all this is that there is no violation of rights because the parents decide.

========================================== Wed, May 5 @ BAL W5-4: POG: Juan Uribe (rbi triple run scored in 7th) AOG: Shingo Tatsuka (hon mention: Marte. Very close betw these guys) BOG: Juan Uribe GoG: Joe Crede (big out at home) Comments: Hawk's reference to Prep H & Crotch was great! Tonight he once again illustrated the danger of a corner pitcher. I commend Olivo's 2 trips to the mound. Crotch didn't get the opposite corner call tonight & was unable to adjust right away. The second trip seemed to quiet him down & he came in a little closer to generate weak contact. Would the SOX be 20-7 (best in the majors) with Gordon (1.76 era)? How many championships could we have won with a 70 mil avg? I think Maggs should have had the ball in right. Yes it was hit hard, but when a ball bounces just in front of a 5 tool player you have to question whether he got a late jump on it. I think Mark pitched competitively & came thru for Ozzy. It was betw Mark on 3 days rest or Garland & having to use a 5th starter down the road. Now he can go Garland, Scott, & E-LO, & come back with Mark. SOX record: 17-10 1st place, RS 141 RA 134: diff +7 2nd to Min (+9) ========================================== JU(72)=20+52 FT(45)=5+40 PK=11 TP=34 MOL(54)=30+24 MO(46)=10+16+20 JC(31)=20+11 AR=40 MB(236/6=39)=10+0+45+60+26+95 ST=0+10 DM=0+20 BK=38 ========================================== CHICAGO SOX 1ST -J Uribe singled to center. 10 -J Uribe stole second.10 -F Thomas walked. 5 JU=20 FT=5 BALTIMORE 1ST -M Mora singled to left. 10 -M Mora caught stealing second, pitcher to first to shortstop to pitcher to second. -5 -M Tejada walked. 5 MB=10 CHICAGO SOX 2ND -P Konerko walked. 5 -T Perez doubled to deep right center, P Konerko to third. 30,4 -M Olivo singled to center, P Konerko and T Perez scored. 35,2,4 -M Olivo caught stealing second, catcher to shortstop. -5 PK=11 TP=34 MOL=30 BALTIMORE 2ND MB=0 CHICAGO SOX 3RD -M Ordonez singled to left. 10 MO=10 BALTIMORE 3RD -B Surhoff doubled to center. 20 -D McDonald reached on infield single to shortstop. 10 -B Roberts sac to catcher, B Surhoff to 3rd, D McDonald to 2nd, 5,2,2 -M Mora walked, B Surhoff scored, D McDonald to third, B Roberts to second. 10,2,2 -M Tejada hit sacrifice fly to left, D McDonald scored. 5,2 MB=45 CHICAGO SOX 4TH -J Crede doubled to deep right. 20 JC=20 BALTIMORE 4TH -J Gibbons homered to right. 50 -L Matos singled to center. 10 MB=60 CHICAGO SOX 5TH -M Ordonez singled to right. 10 -F Thomas doubled to deep right, M Ordonez scored. 40,6 MO=16 FT=40 BALTIMORE 5TH -B Roberts doubled to deep left center. 20 (couple of sac's worth 6 pts) MB=26 CHICAGO SOX 6TH BALTIMORE 6TH -J Lopez homered to left center. 50 -B Surhoff singled to right. 10 -D McDonald singled to center, B Surhoff to second. 15 -B Roberts reached on infield single to shortstop, B Surhoff to third, D McDonald to second.20 MB=95 -S Takatsu relieved M Buehrle. ST=0 CHICAGO SOX 7TH -M Olivo doubled to deep left. 20 -J Uribe tripled to deep right, M Olivo scored. 50,4 -M Ordonez reached on infield single to second, J Uribe scored.20,2 MOL=24 JU=52 MO=20 BALTIMORE 7TH -R Palmeiro walked. 5 -R Palmeiro to second on wild pitch by S Takatsu. 5 ST=10 -D Marte relieved S Takatsu. DM=0 CHICAGO SOX 8TH -J Crede walked. 5 -A Rowand doubled to deep right, J Crede scored. 40,6 JC=11 AR=40 BALTIMORE 8TH -D McDonald doubled to deep right. 20 DM=20 CHICAGO SOX 9TH BALTIMORE 9TH -B Koch relieved D Marte. -Bottom of the 9th inning -M Mora walked. 5 -M Tejada singled to right, M Mora to second. 15 -R Palmeiro walked, M Mora to third, M Tejada to second. 9 -J Lopez hit sacrifice fly to center, M Mora scored. 5 -J Gibbons grounded into fielder's choice to second, J Bautista out at second, M Tejada to third. 4 BK=38

I love the way some of you seem to think CAPS adds greater weight to your argument. Of course if it's your opinion then it has to be correct regardless of history, behavioral science studies, or psychology. Any ways school/teachers & ethics/morals has been moved to a new thread. Have at it. There is more to this cultural war then just that & frankly I'm bored with that discussion. I win as always so let's move on Stern vs Oprah: Well this is a good one & I have just one answer : 3 second rule. First I agree with Stern. Oprah's March 18th broadcast is no less explciit than his. Since the argument is protecting the kids & America's mainstream is overwhelming in favor of that then context has little meaning. A kid is not going to understand the differentiation of context like adults. The solution: the 3 second rule. Both shows & any others that broadcast during what the FCC considers kid-friendly hours should be subjected to the 3 second rule & the objectionable words should be bleeped out by the technology. There are few boards on the internet any more that don't bleep objectionable words & the air waves should always have a higher standard than the net. Both shows enjoy late broadcasts to where they can be heard without bleeps so it's not as if their freedom of expression is being compromised. There is no freedom guaranteeing the right to be heard. That's left solely to the wheels of capitalism. I don't agree with that in it's entirety but it is what it is. I was following orders: Forget about it. That isn't going to work in the US military. The rules & practices clearly state that a soldier has a duty to decline & report any order than conflicts with the the Geneva convention & the much higher US military standards & practices. There are no gray areas here it's crystal clear. So the defense will be that the soldiers were ignorant to this definition & could not discern when that conflict occured. Good luck. Maybe you'll enjoy your simulated activities in the Fed penitentiary. Should Rumsfeld resign? I think he should because as secretary of Defense it's his job to make sure all Generals & military intelligence personal are aware of what is & what is not an acceptable method of interogation. This clearly was/is unacceptable. If it turns out he did that & this was a rogue insubordination then I will give him a repreive. Otherwise Mr. Rumsfeld .. YOU'RE FIRED!

If a teacher/admin is involved & that prevents you from attending school then absolutely blow the whistle on them. But if it's kids well the best you can do is tell a teacher/admin but that's just like ratting on cheaters or bullies. There are inevitable consequences that no amount of legislation will prevent.

I disagree. Ethics classes are to specific to the area of interest. As you said you felt a medical ethics class was one of your best & I have had some good engineering ethics classes as well. But morality is more aligned with sociology & psychology & I think these need to be taught as well. I've got a unique background that included many of both ilk. I am not advocating that ethics & morality classes be associated with prayer. I am advocating that if students wish to go in that direction & no one in the class objects that should be allowed to. In a more general sense, I am looking more along the lines that all of the great philosophies of our times can be included in these classes. So now Christians will not only be included in this but also encouraged to learn about others.

Something like ethics/morality would have to have a national standard. So no teacher would be able to enforce their own belief system. I was thinking that at the elementary level it could be as simple as simply quoting & discussing philsophers before a social science class. This would allow Christian, Muslim, Buddhists, Jewish, Confusicts, etc ideas back into the class room. It would be confined to core principles so there is little room for teachers to explore confusing tangents. As the years progress these ideas get explored greater & in high school business ethics are introduced.

See all of that doesn't prevent the crime from being committed. That is the child not being able to attend school. Keep in mind the guy doesn't get arrested unless he bars the kid from going to school. So in most cases the kid after being sent home would show up with the police & his parents to let the kid back in. I pity the kid who tries to exploit a teacher under such circumstances because they can be arrested for obstruction of justice. I don't think any kid would try it as his parents would be notified, the police could pursue the case in juvenile court, & of course there would be substantial fines. Obstruction of justice charges can be very costly. It would be very foolish for an admin to suspend a child for prayer, a bible, a rosary, the koran, etc. because the law would immediately require a banner posted in every principal's office reminded them of the law. No admin/teacher could claim ignorance as a defense.

In answer to your question, yes. When I refer to Godless I don't necc mean those who believe in God. As I've stated before I know several asians in Japan & in America that do not beleive in God per-se but do believe in the philosophies in the Bible. Likewise when I refer to school prayer I don't mean necc the prayer itself but rather an environment that makes such acts in private difficult & stressful. What the studies suggest is that aversion to God in public schools has led to the absence of ethics/morality being taught in the schools. That's primarily what is missing. And when you consider that all other media in a child's life these days is primarily void of such concepts the burden has fallen entirely on the parents. By & large it's a burden they neither want nor are qualified to shoulder. Now how do you change that? Well it's very difficult because of the anti-God culture. It can certainly be done through references to morally good & sound philosophers, but administrators so far have been reluctant to do so. I wouldn't mind my child going to a public school where each day before class the teacher reads a quote from a philsopher & includes Jesus Christ in that framework. One day Jesus, one day Mohammed, one day Confuscious, etc. There are over nearly 300 days in the school year & a daily indoctrination by all of the greats toward developing moral & ethical students would probably be more beneficial than prayer itself.

It seems to me this might be the best solution to school prayer. Would you support adding ethics/morality classes to the general ciriculum of elem, & hs students in America? Now before you think this is a guise for religion it's not. There are ethics classes taught in engineering schools that have ZERO religious affiliations. They used to be elective but now they are mandatory because of the importance ethics play in engineering decisions. My guess would be that these classes would start in about 5th or 6th grade because of the reading level required. There's a wealth of information available on human rights, sociology, & psychology to fill out enough class material. I believe a certain degree of latitude should be provided in the class room to form collective opinions & such. That would include prayer & such provided nobody nobody objected. That makes the minority opinion the ruling one.

Believe it or not there is one on the books. Truancy laws. It actually applies to any person preventing a child from attending school for a certain age. The Fed would simply need to expand any person to include teachers & admin on the basis of religious persecution. As far as your stipulation I don't have a problem with the admin trying to provide a justification for the suspension but the child should remain in school until the courts rule on that case. I believe the act of an admin being arrested & charged with the crime at the school would be enough of a detterant to prevent this abuse. The law would be clearly posted in the school itself but in the case it did happen the parent would simply need to call DCFS explain the situation & the police would arrive on the scene. Even in that case, if the admin allowed the student back they would be released & the parent would still be afforded the right to sue in a civil sense for the humiliation of their child.

I have created a new poll thread to discuss specifically the issue of kids being allowed to exercise their faith in private at schools. That being the case we will leave that discussion there. No one is saying to F the minority. Minority rights are those rights that the majority agrees upon. This is fundamental to any democracy. In the case of the US the founders assign certain alienable rights as God given rights. Thereby restricting them from being open to debate or subjected to majority opinion. It would take a by & large majority movement to usurp any of those rights. Again in you're polls you are still generalizing the religious groups. There is a distinct difference between practicing & non-practicing. In all divorce polls the practicing Christian groups are the lowest. Quote: One can reinforce positive principles without having them be distinctly Christian. If that is the case then why isn't it happening? Perhaps because there is no tradition or culture to emphasis generic positive principles on students. You can lip speak things all you want, but if there is no basis to believe in them how much worth do they have? No I have 30 yrs of data clearly outling criminal behavior amongsts non-practicing Christians vs practicing Christians. I likewise have 30 yrs worth of behavioral studies demonstrating the importance of the "God" complex to young minds. It really doesn't matter whether it's Christian or Muslim but it needs to reflect a general belief. School prayer is a very valid thing to concentrate on because we have data both before it was banned & after. That's enough data to strongly suggest it is a major factor. Perhaps not the most important one, but certain one that can no longer be ignored.

I believe most of you do believe that Americans have a right to be free from religious persecution. But clearly that is what is happening in schools across America. I likewise believe that most of you do not support school prayer. So how about a compromise? Would you support a Federal law that made it a criminal act to bar a student from attending school because the child wished to either: 1) carry a Bible 2) wear a crucifix 3) pray the rosary at lunch In other words a Federal law strengthing the right to exercise one's religion in a lawful manner. Most of you believe these rights exist today in schools but there are many cases & some that are working there way through the state & federal courts that prove otherwise. Today the entire matter is a civil one & the damage is done before the courts can provide action. By making it a criminal one action can be taken immediately to get the child back in school & remove the admin from his position. To me this is pretty clear cut because it's not a he said she said scenario. Either the child is permitted to attend the school or he/she is not.

I love the way YOUR opinion rules over the students. There is a distinct purpose of organized prayer at the beginning of a school day: to reinforce general Christian values in the minds of the students. Every study available shows that strength in numbers reinforces a principle. It's much stronger than allowing silent or individual prayer. The Godless had there chance over the past 30 yrs to prove their point. We have 30 yrs of statistics including that declining avg age in our prisons. Did you know that 1/2 of all prison inmates in the US today are young adults? Your policies are a clear failure. Just like they were on welfare, malpractice suits, & medicare in general. It's time you go quietly to the corner & let the real workers have a stab at the problems you created.

Until another media organization chooses to pay for a study all that exists are sources that would align themselves as Christian. Are you volunteering to do an independant study? As to the rest of you: Quote: The 1999 Barna (who is a Christian) study on divorce showed that born-again Christians (Baptists in particular) had the highest divorce rate, while Atheists/Agnostics had the lowest. I would like the details on that poll. The latest mainstream media polls place Catholics at the top. But this has nothing to do with prayer. The closest statistic we have to those who participate in daily prayer are practicing Catholics. These are church going Catholics & in America they make up the largest single prayer group if you will. Roughly about 20-25 million Americans. They have the lowest divorce rate in the county. You're reference to the largest group of religious persons being high-school or less is completely false. It was true 30 yrs ago, but not today. But you're general assertion that the % of college educated persons retaining their religious practice is decreasing is true. Of course the absence of God from their education process prior to college probably has a lot to do with that Quote: And anyone who might vote against it and lose then pays for the school to teach one religion to their children. Oh I forgot, somehow the county is going to build a new segregated schoolhouse for the people who don't want that. A democracy guarantees fairness to the majority. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in democracy. The country is not going to build anything that does not have sufficient support. If you lose the vote then you can either move to a district that suits you or accept the consequence that your opinion is a minority one.

How did prayer suddenly become an act of racism? This has nothing to do with prayer but I will address it from the general context of the will of the majority. There are Federal, State, & municipal laws, statutes, & codes to prevent violation of basic human rights. Racism is prohibited by those laws. Civics 101: How law works. A Federal law supercedes a State law. A State law supercedes a municipal law. A municipal law supercedes a district law. For a district law to pass it can't violate any existing Fed, St, or Muni law. In a democracy, Fed law should reflect the majority of citizens in the nation. A State law should reflect the majority of citizens in the state, & so on. You can think of it as 4 circles of influence.

YES! Absolutely! Finely you have come to the heart of the matter. Why? Because it fosters respect & admiration for others faith as well. Ex. Let's consider a class of 10% atheist/other, 10% jewish, 30% muslim, & 50% christian Any one of these 4 groups should be given the freedom to ask for a minute of prayer. That request should be voted on through referrendum by the parents & residents of that community. Now maybe there isn't enough support in the community to allow that but that due process should still be afforded to those students. I would hope in a class where 30% of them where Muslim that the community would decided it as follows: 1 minute for Christians, 1 minute for Muslims, & 1 minute for respect of silent prayer by others. There are only so many minutes one can allot for this so it's the best solution in this case.

You should do the research on your own. Go to Google and search on benefits of school prayer or if you prefer research on school prayer. Kids paying lip service .. oh I really like that one. Considering that the majority of students in the class requested the right to do so. Details are very important in debates. No where have I advocated forced prayer like in the past. This has to be student organized & parents approved through referrendum. Did I just hear you suggest that divorce rates are higher amongst people who pray daily than those who not? Did you really just make that claim? Much greater education .. that's a good one too. Which person is more educated? One educated post 1990 who did his/her own homework, couldn't cheat on tests, wrote their own papers or one who uses every means possible today to cheat & get others to do their work?

You statement is a complete fallacy. All polls of God-fearing Christians (which are assumed to be Church going Christians) show clear support for school prayer. So to suggest that the majority of them do not is a clear lie. In a democracy that protects religious freedom & realizes the importance of exercising that freedom in the development of children & young adults the parents & students would decide through school referrendums.

Wrong. The school's responsibility is to teach a child/adult the best way possible so that the child can become a BENEFICIAL citizen to the nation. That comes through gainful employment as well as social influence. To suggest the spiritual & emotional side of a human being has any less importance in that educational process is to ignore the consequences that leaves on the nation as a whole. As I pointed to before even the Chinese & Japanese have come to accept this & are now beginning to integrate such general princiiples into their education system. There is no loss of a comfortable learning environment in a class room if the majority of the students decide to organize a minute of prayer. You need to stop expanding a single instance to a generalization with no basis in fact. It is the obligation of the school to do what is best to produce the best MAJORITY it can. The comfort of one should not outweigh the comfort of the many.

Excellent point Steff! To which I ask you this. If a child suddenly came home feeling better about themselves & their school because of the benefits of school prayer in the class room do you not think that would rub off on the parents? Do you not think that a child embracing prayer might actually lead a parent to rediscover their faith? There is a TON of information available showing a clear distinction between those who pray & those who don't. So please don't even bother to suggest that a person who prays everyday is just as likely to commit crimes & human rights violations than a person who doesn't. The numbers aren't even in the same Universe & any one with common sense would realize that. Of course we are talking America so don't even bother mentioning the militants around the world who pray. There are schools in Pakistan that teach nothing but the Koran. I hardly think even you would call that a complete education.

Why are you using caps? Refer to the NAZI reference above. It's not semantics. It's fundamental context. The foundation for separation of Church & State had little to do with the Church having control over the State & EVERYTHING to do with the State USING the Church as a tool to subjegate the citizens. Did you bother studying World History? This is pretty fundamental stuff. There's nearly a 1000 yrs of history explaining the State's use of of the Church as a tool in the Kingdoms of Europe. In fact if you study that history in detail you will find more often than not that the Church served as a conscience for the State to prevent greater rape & pillage of the citizens. As for the rest of your claims there is over 100 yrs worth of behavioral science data now available (go to Google to find it) that paints a clear picture of society in America in the pro-prayer in school yrs vs the con-prayer in school yrs. It paints a clear picture that the pro-prayer students were better people than the con.

This is why the thread should not be closed. We should be able to debate the consequences of denying the 299 kids the right to prayer in order to protect the right of the Jewish/Atheist to abstain. 1) If we are going to debate things on priniciple then suggestions of the 299 taking it out on the 1 have little merit. You would need to provide some reference to support that. Referring to general references like KKK is useless because we are talking specifically 299 kids deciding to pray in a class room. Behavioral science defining those 299 kids undoubtedly comes into play. It's called tolerance & it's practiced in sports. When games are played in Canada both the American & Canadian national anthems are sung. Why not give the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. the opportunity to offer a 60 sec prayer in the class room as well?