JUGGERNAUT

Why would you close a thread that is for the most part profanity free & is simply debating S,L, & P in an SLP forum? If you do then it's a clear sign of censorship & a form of reliigous persecution. I just want to make that known. God forbid if prayer in schools might lead to : I assume you are just trying to be funny, because comparing a few people to 3 billion educated over the last 30 yrs is pretty lame. 4) Is a clear lie. Again do a search on Google on "Christians teaching Muslims" to learn. 5) Has nothing to do with schools. 6) The Inquistion & last Crusade occured nearly 400 yrs ago. Get over it you look nuts to bring it up in 2004. Likewise if you bothered to study either they are much more so cases of Politicians using religion as a tool to enact their ideology than the other way around. Which is exactly the purpose of the separation of Church & State: to prevent the State from using religion as a tool in that context. 7) Hitler killed many Catholics & Christians that tried to protect the Jews as well. To even mention prayer as a catalyst to the Holocaust is beyond dumb.

Separation of Church & State: what does it mean? It does not mean the State can not HELP assist any institution that has an affiliation with a Church. There is NOT one WORD in the Constitution that either states or implies this. What it means is that the State can NOT ACKNOWLEDGE any Church ruling, provision, etc. as a formal ruling of the State. The purpose of this separation was to PREVENT the emergence of what had taken place in Europe up to that time. It was to prohibit FORCED acceptance of state ruling on the basis of their religious affiliation. An abuse that was common in Europe at the time. Do you realize how your points are defeating themselves? First you say that segregation should be allowed in all fairness but then you want to deny it on your belief that a God based school deserves special prohibition over any other idealogical school? And then on top of that you have the nerve to associate my words to those of Hitlers. Do you know how utterly stupid that is? I will give you an example: If Juggernaut were leader of Germany in the 1930's the Jews would have a clear & present voice in government & the funds to education their children as they see fit. Now if you were the leader of Germany in the 1930's you would send the Jews home. You're making me burst with laughter

Nice try. Notice I said "MAJORITY" of STUDENTS in the class room. Not the teacher nor the principal. What you have just stated is that you feel it is ok for the minority of students to prohibit socially good & morally sound behavior of the MAJORITY. I'm still waiting for an intelligent argument against this. Specifically the cause & effect or wicked consequences that will arise from allowing such behavior to enter the class room. Please take a shot, so that I can then list all the crap that goes on in the class room today & outline the consequences of that behavior. God forbid if prayer in schools might lead to : 1) reduced cheating 2) reduced lying 3) reduced molesting 4) reduced taunting 5) reduced emotional abuse 6) reduced physical abuse 7) reduced drug usage Oh yes the dire consequences of prayer in the class room might just prevent a few more sadists. We certainly wouldn't want that.

What you don't think they have Internet access in the Arab world? I understand some of you simply don't have the mental capacity to absorb that much information in a week. Go to ABC News, Prime Time & look up the episode on the impact of modern media in the arab world.

If you believe that a decision between a few 100 $'s for books & fees & nearly 10000 $'s to send a child to a private school is a choice then please relocate to Europe. That is not a VIABLE choice. You can easily find the cases of prejudice against Christians in schools by searching the topic at ABC news, MSNBC, or FOX or if you prefer just do it via Google. If you again believe that if a majority of students desire to hold prayer in their classroom should be prohibited then please relocate to a Godless country. Since you have no real basis to debate the subject there's no point in my elaborating. I find it amusing how your argument towards retaining bad teachers coincides with the Church's argument of retaining bad priests: there are so few of them. Quality is far better than quanity & technology makes quality more available to answer the question of quantity.

Some of you are hilarious. First he states I will put my record up against 99% of you Christians & then he ends it "bite my crank". I rest my case on that one. Public funding should reflect the demographic of the community the school serves. Example: If a county breaks down as 10% Godless, 50% mixed, & 40% God then 10% of the schools in the county should be segregated for the Godless, 50% for mixed, & 40% for God. Oh no there's that E-V-I-L segregation word the liberals hate. Of course this is ELECTIVE & not forced segregation. There would be nothing to prevent a Godless student from CHOOSING to go to a God school or vice-versa. If the majority of residents choose to support the high school trip during Gay pride week then yes that is acceptable so long as parents still have the right to keep their kids home w/out fear of consequence. Your personal eye-witness reports only support the more sublime accounts of other personal testimony offered in print & news media. Why would I accept yours over someone else's? Someone challenged the assertion that the MAJORITY religious culture in Japan & China is Godless. Do you need a history lesson. Since you did not refute that Christian VALUES (which of course do not exclude Buddhists or Jewish values) are popping up in these cultures & their education system there really in offering that history lesson. Since the best approximation of Godless & Gays is about 10% (funny how those 2 are so close) why would seeing their public portrayals of affection merit any more worth than the roughly 1% of S&M practicers pulling their slaves around by a collar & chain? The numbers simply do not promote treating gay behavior any different than any other fetish behavior that the majority of Americans do not consider socially acceptable. Is Disney discrimination against the S&M people because they don't have an S&M Pride week? For those who forget or were never taught how a democracy works let me explain it: 1- Freedom of speech & expression is guaranteed so that ALL people have the opportunity to influence the majority. 2- The majority opinion is expected to be the governing opinion. That is the essence of democracy void of God, religion, or any other value system that would shape the context of the majority opinion. So for those of you who support MINORITY opinions you have the right to do all you can to influence the MAJORITY of your opinion. But you do not have the right to systemically undermine that majority opinion. If you think the majority of residents of Broward county would elect for the high school trip to Disney during gay pride week then you are trully clueless as to where the majority stands in America.

Go ahead Godless unite. I have 35 yrs of history in America to destroy any argument you wish to make. I more than welcome your attempts. The odds (based on clinical research) suggest you are dead wrong in what you think the background of those sadists are. The research suggests they do not revere God which is what this about. It's not about professing a weak & useless belief in God. It's about showing reverance to Christian values. The odds are that these grunts & the general herself experienced such acts themselves. Either during their time in the military or beforehand during elementary, high, or univeristy education. The odds are that these grunts & the general have participated in sadistic acts in the past. In general here are the questions to ask your Godless selves: 1) By what right do you have to force Godless behavior on those who show reverance to God? Do you not believe that these people have a right to segregate themselves from you? I wish your stats were true, but they are not. Roughly 85% of Americans profess a belief in God. But only about 25% of them practice that belief on a daily or weekly basis. Just 30 yrs ago that number was as high as 40% & 15 yrs before that it was as high as 70%. Clearly God's absence from the class room has had a dramatic effect on that number. God should never be a requirement in a class room, but it should be an option. It should never be a prohibition & it is today. What signal do you think this sends to young adults when they see children punished for showing reverance to their faith? And why is it fair to only punish the Christians? Again the cases that have been documented today indicate reports of acceptance for muslims & jews. The bottomline is all these slogans like "education begins at home" don't work. Parents simply will not bother to teach things to their children that might cause them stress. They expect the public education system to do that job for them. It's clear now that the pub ed has failed to do that. Failed in the past 30 yrs what it used to do routinely before that. There are answers to these problems. What is more important to America? Teachers or politicians? Why then do we not have term limits & elections for teachers & school admins? The best way to stop the abuses of admins like those at Broward county is to hold these people accountable to the majority of residents in that county. Just has voting records hold politicians accountable so to should decisions apply to these admins. Even the Godless should see merit in that.

Your words seem to speak of finding a balance between the Godless & God-revering cultures. I am not advocating a forced or militant re-emergence of God in the public class room. What I am advocating is the right for parents & students to bring God back to the class room so long as the majority support it. More importantly than the symbolism of what God represents is the Christian value system. The Godless have by & large rejected that system. Even in Japan, & China (traditionally Godless nations) those values are surfacing in their public education system & as well as their print & media. That is what is missing in America today. There is no education teaching morals with respect to respect for human life. Morality is not teaching students it's good to be gay or lesbian. Morality is teaching students what is proper & admirable based on society's norms of the time. You may think men wearing skirts with no underwear at Disneyland fits that criteria but it's clearly not by every means available to measure majority opinions. You may think girls & boys making out in front of public schools with the same sex is the norm, but again it's not. These are abberations of a system forcing the fusion of straights & non-straights (as you call them) towards acceptance of a non-straight lifestyle. In a general point of view this is about segregation vs non-segregation. Forcing cultures to interact with one another is no better than forcing them to segregate. As you suggested the best answer is to provide freedom of choices: straights, mixed, & non-straights. Let the parents decide which group they want their students education fostered by. This shouldn't just apply to sexual-preference either. It should apply to Christian values. Elective segregation is much better than prohibition or forced interaction.

Especially when there now exists a FOUNTAIN of clinical research reports indicating that the powers of suggestion increase significantly with drug & alcohol use. If you want a prisoner to talk you need not subject them to humiliation through nakedness & pyramid stacking. You simply need to inject them with drugs &/or alcohol. I've read (but can not attest to) reports that drinks injected directly into the colon (via needles) is many times more effective to becoming drunk then drinking itself. And it's a fact that as people become drunk they become more open to suggestion. Especially in answering personal questions or any questions that bear some stress on that person in a normal context.

Rummsfeld should resign over this. He has no excuse for sitting on this so long & as sec of defense it's his job to oversee the conduct of the generals that serve beneath him.

There are so MANY problems in America today that DID NOT exist prior to the 1960's. It was at that time when the public education system began removing God from the class room & consequently added pressure on private education systems to curtail morality lessons from the class room. An example is malpractice suits. The problem: The rising costs of malpractice insurance is driving the low numbers of doctors in America to dangerously low levels in states like IL. The right-wing: Cap all mal-practice insurance. The left-wing: Leave it as is. The moderate: The courts should recognize a capitalistic answer to this problem: varying levels of malpractice caps. Don't legislate the caps but rather let the patient & doctor's agree in writing on the levels of the cap. Now you let supply & demand forces decide on what a tolerable cap level is. The problem in America is that the moderate doesn't get a voice any more. Now you ask how does this relate to God & Godless? Because any person who practices reverenance to God will try to balance the two sides. Realizing the irresponsibility befitting society to allow greed to lower the number of practicing physicians & nurses in America. A Godless person has no motivation other than their own ability to obtain medical care to consider this. Now for the lawyers that visit this thread, when I make general statements I am referring to a BY & LARGE context (better than just a majority). ========================================= Abortion of course is at the central point of this culture war. Without discussing a 30 yr history how much longer will abortion advocates cling to their only crutch that a fetus is not a human being WHEN .. in yrs to come .. medical science will be able to guarantee a better than 90% probability that a fetus will become a human being? In otherwords if science (the state) is able to incubate a fetus with as good or better than a woman then where do you draw the line as to when human life begins? We already have physical evidence indicating brain activity after 6 wks! When does a right choose become a right to kill? This is a very complex question to answer because each year medical science redefines the basis of human life. Recently 5 embryos were grown from stem cells to help treat an ailiing boy in Chicago. Now you can hide behind any legal jargon you want but the bottom line is that science provides us the ability to clone ourselves to varying degrees of re-production to sustain ourselves? Is it moral to kill versions of ourselves to sustain our eldest version? This is not science-fiction any more. This is near term future. The evidence is over-whelming that if we continue on a path toward negating God from public life that these new problems of conscience will ultimately ruin our country. I usually keep silent on these things but that picture of her smiling over her handiwork was too much to bear.

This is yet another sign that America is indeed in the midst of a culture war back home. First I want to say that not only is this appauling & disgusting but it is likewise the dumbest thing I have ever witnessed from a female Brig General. It is HER JOB to know what is GOING on with the troops that serve UNDER her. It is HER JOB to establish the standards & procedures for action & treatment of prisoners that fall under the CARE of her troops. There is ownership & accountability of responsibility in the military like no other institution. The evidence seems crystal clear not so much by the pyramid stacking but more so by the female smoking a cigarette, laughing, & boozing it up. Like it's some accomplishment for her. I will not be happy with just Federal prison time for these sadists. I want every facet of their adult lives displayed before the public. IMO, if you engage in such acts then you forfeit your rights to privacy. I am equally appauled by some comments from College students , sorority, & fraternity alumni suggesting this was not torture but light hazing. Though that may be true by the acts occuring on our campuses this only further illustrates the stupidity of their comments by equating prisoners of war to pledges. What is the world to think when they hear the stories, see the hazing on Oprah, listen to how America's youth seems to accept & tolerate it, & then see it reflected on the treatment of prisoners of war? That is why this is much bigger than Iraq. This is a culture war. America used to be a God praying country that had both reverence & respect for human rights, public decency, & a moral & virtuous life. Today it is clearly divided between those who want America to turn back to that tradition & those who want America become a greater pool of sin & decadence & debauchery. This is why it is imperative that the investigation interview the backgrounds, education, & people that influenced these sadists lives. The American people need to know the causes behind not only these persons behavior but likewise their mindsets. When I heard that private contractors were involved as well there is no question this is a lot bigger than just inquisition techniques. This comes on the heels of some very bad news about America in general. Why would any country believe us when they need only turn on their TV the week before & learn on Prime Time that the majority of America's students cheat & life their way thru school. They see a country where students take text messaging cell phones into tests (incl the SAT, & ACT) & the proctors & teachers allow it. They see a country where students pay for papers to be written for them in both the high school & college level. What does the rest of the world think when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE KIDS interviewed refers to Clinton's words over the Monica affair? Is Clinton's real legacy to be the biggest generation of cheats & liars? It shocks me when these same kids graduate with high grades & then wonder why legal research work is being farmed out to Bombay. Perhaps a firm isn't too impressed with a 3.5 gpa JD grad that can't write a legible research paper. ================================ What the world sees is an America that is being slowly driven by the Godless. What is the Arab world to think when a high school in Broward county purposefully schedules a trip to Disney world during gay pride week? Never mind the fact that their are eye-witness reports of groping & other acts of public indecency occuring at the park in that week by gays & lesbians. Shouldn't the parents of those childrens been allowed to elect the day the school should take the trip? Why should morally consciencable students be forced to choose between trip & no-trip? ================================ I'm sick & tired of listening to the useless crap that comes out of the mind of the Godless. We are now experiencing a country of adults that are products of an education system that has tried to be Godless. The results? The majority of them are completely clueless of what is considered morally decent behavior. The majority of them do not feel the US Justice system is an effective deterent to enforce morally decent behavior. So what is the answer? The God driven people of America today understand the importance of freedom in America so they are more concerned in protecting their freedoms than limiting others. But there is an answer. Rights to privacy. If people can not govern themselves toward public decency & moral behavior that respects human rights then they should be subjected to losing their rights to privacy. When something like this happens the people involved should be treated as the sex offenders they are. Whenever you force any persons into nakedness you have crossed the line into being a sex offender. Especially when you take delight in their humiliation. ================================ Often I hear the dumb arse lame excuse from legal persons that fetishes are acceptable when two persons consent. Again such a statement shows their ignorance. Perhaps they are of the cheating ilk that never bothered to do any research on their own. The basic question to ask in all of these acts is what constitutes consent? This applies to hazing as well at both high schools, & colleges. The intelligent, rational mind considers consent a decision arrived by a well-informed adult over a period of time in which that adult can both research & inquire upon the effects of his/her decision. A simple spur of the moment yes or no should never constitute consent. Any one who has bothered to take some sociology & psychology classes in college (and of course wrote their own research papers) would know that there are many forms of stress & pressure that can be wielded by another individual, group, or institution to coerce a form of consent. Consent can only be respected when the decision is made AWAY from such influences. Now the reason why I am mentioning this is because of the mindset portrayed in those pictures. It is the celebratory context of some of them which indicates a major breakdown in the education (both school & life) of these grunts. America has a right to know what influences in their lives brought them to take delight in the suffering of others. ================================ With respect to America's culture war it's time to bring God back to the class room. If the majority of students & parents want God in the class room then it can be no worse then what is occuring in those schools today. The majority should have the final say. Tolerance should not include cohersion. Yet that is exactly what is being enacted in schools in America today. Cohersion to accept the gay & lesbian lifestyle, cohersion to accept a porn like way of life, & cohersion to eliminate all mention of God from America. I recall Lenon's famous lyrics .. imagine a world without religion. I need only look to the decay in American soceity to see a clear picture of that. A world w/out religion doesn't work. Religion is not an opium of the people as some suggest. It is not a crutch either. It is in it's idealic sense an institution of trust that is beyond the animallistic nature of mankind. That's what Religion is. Without it, there is nothing but rule of law to guard against that nature. We have 30 years of history now in America to see clearly that is not enough. What happens over time is a Godless moralless nation loses respect for the rule of law. We see that clearly in America today. But of course those that made the statements including Lenon himself never bothered to invest the time or energy into studying psychology & sociology in the world today. What Freud hypothesized (because he had little means to conduct clinical trials) can fit in one semester of a psych degree. That's called progress. Developing a wiser knowledgebase over time. It stands in stark contrast to talking from the hip.

========================================== Tue, May 4 @ TOR L10-3: Worst played game of the year! POG: Magglio Ordonez( RON 1 HR) AOG: Neil Cotts (20, deserved better) BOG: Magglio Ordonez (70, 2 run HR) GoG: Aaron Rowand (run saving dive) Note: See Brandofan's glove comments. I think the worst was nobody covering 2B to receive a perfect throw from Olivo. So much for Uribe taking Val's job. ========================================== JU(17)=10+7 MO=70 FT(14)=5+7+2 PK(7)=5+2 AR(20)=15+5 MOL(20)=5+15 CL(15)=10+5 JC=50 KD=12 EL(275/6=46)=35+0+67+108+10+55 MJ(21)=0+42 NC=20 ============================= CHICAGO SOX 1ST -J Uribe singled to left. 10 -M Ordonez homered to left, J Uribe scored. 70 -F Thomas hit by pitch. 5 JU=10 MO=70 FT=5 BALTIMORE 1ST -B Roberts singled to center. 10 -M Mora struck out looking, B Roberts stole second, B Roberts to third on throwing error by catcher M Olivo. 10 -M Tejada hit sacrifice fly to left, B Roberts scored. 5,2 -R Palmeiro singled to right. 10 EL=35 CHICAGO SOX 2ND -P Konerko walked. 5 -A Rowand walked. 5 -A Rowand to second on passed ball by J Lopez. 5 -A Rowand to third on wild pitch by E Dubose. 5 -M Olivo walked. 5 -J Uribe walked, M Olivo to second. 7 PK=5 AR=15 MOL=5 JU=7 BALTIMORE 2ND EL=0 CHICAGO SOX 3RD -C Lee walked. 5 -C Lee to second on wild pitch by E Dubose. 5 CL=10 BALTIMORE 3RD -L Bigbie reached on infield single to second. 10 -B Roberts doubled to deep right, L Bigbie to third. 30 -M Mora grounded out to shortstop, L Bigbie scored. 5,2 -M Tejada grounded out to second, B Roberts to third. 2,2 -R Palmeiro singled to right, B Roberts scored. 20 EL=67 CHICAGO SOX 4TH -J Crede homered to left. 50 -A Rowand walked. 5 -M Olivo singled to left, A Rowand to second. 15 JC=50 AR=5 MOL=15 BALTIMORE 4TH -J Gibbons reached on infield single to third. 10 -B Surhoff walked, J Gibbons to second. 7 -L Matos sacrificed to third, J Gibbons to third, B Surhoff to second. 6 -B Roberts safe at first on error by shortstop K Dransfeldt, J Gibbons and B Surhoff scored. 10 -B Roberts stole second. 10 -M Mora walked. 5 -B Roberts stole third, M Mora stole second. 25 -M Tejada singled to right, B Roberts and M Mora scored. 35 EL=108 CHICAGO SOX 5TH -F Thomas walked. 5 -P Konerko grounded out to second, F Thomas to second. 2,2 FT=7 PK=2 BALTIMORE 5TH -J Lopez singled to center. 10 EL=10 CHICAGO SOX 6TH BALTIMORE 6TH -B Roberts singled to right center. 10 -B Roberts stole second. 10 -M Tejada walked. 5 -R Palmeiro singled to right, B Roberts scored, M Tejada to third. 30 EL=55 -M Jackson relieved E Loaiza. MJ=0 CHICAGO SOX 7TH -K Dransfeldt singled to center. 10 -F Thomas grounded out to third, K Dransfeldt to second. 2,2 -C Lee walked. 5 KD=12 FT=2 CL=5 BALTIMORE 7TH -J Gibbons singled to left. 10 -B Surhoff singled to right, J Gibbons to third. 20 -L Matos grounded into fielder's choice to shortstop, J Gibbons scored, B Surhoff out at second. 5 -B Roberts walked, L Matos to second. 7 MJ=42 CHICAGO SOX 8TH BALTIMORE 8TH -N Cotts relieved M Jackson. -M Tejada singled to left. 10 -R Palmeiro safe at first on error by first baseman P Konerko, M Tejada to third. 5 -J Lopez grounded into double play, shortstop to second to first, M Tejada scored, R Palmeiro out at second. 5 NC=20 CHICAGO SOX 9TH

Maggs is not really heated up yet, but with Frank behind him he's still getting good pitches. That's why I think overall Maggs walk totals & OBP is up. I think it's good to keep it where it is. Maggs is going to heat up & when he does they will dominate the scoreboard. When you consider that Frank is leading the AL in Sag's RPG (total production stat) it seems to be working real well for Frank. Best to leave it alone. I would make some changes though: Olivo-Uribe/Val-Maggs-Frank-Lee-Koney-Crede-Rowand-Harris or Harris/Uribe-Val-Maggs-Frank-Lee-Koney-Crede-Alomar-Rowand Olivo's production & speed is too good to waste & the tail of the order.

Who were they chanting for? Were the O's actually chanting for Maggs?

If I may be so bold as to tell Ozzie what to do, I would stick with Koch .. but I would not leave him alone when he gets in trouble. Do we all agree that Koch is a bit of a mental case? If so then it's imperative you keep talking to him when things don't go his way. Koch is going to give up walks. I explained why, but for those who didn't read back I'll say it again: He's a corner pitcher. If a hitter is routinely fouling off his corner pitches then Koch will either give up a hit or a walk. I prefer he gives up a walk. What I don't want is you people messing with his mind & telling him not to be so fine on the corners. Because when that happens he comes over the plate more & gives up the big hit. I don't want that. What bothered me last night is that it took 2 bowling pitches to get any body up & out there to talk to him. It was clear his mind imploded (so to speak) when BJ got the ball call on what would have been strike three. That was the mental fuse that melted Koch. Thank God for Uribe because he did exactly what I didn't want him to do : come over more on the plate. In an ideal world, somebody goes out to talk to Koch as soon as the ump called ball on what should have been strike three. You have to quiet his mind when these things happen or else it will implode. To his credit I will say that when he is in the right mind, Koch can hit the corners like nobody else in that bullpen. But I still think moving Shingo into a setup/staged-closer position is a smart move because of his arsenal of pitches.

I'll periodically update this thread with the link to the monthly scoring thread. April: http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=17449&hl= May: http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18212&hl=

This one will be renamed "2004 SOX Evaluation Commentary & Challenges". These 2 will be deleted: http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18308&hl= http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18319&hl=

That only counts in horeshoes. In MLB it's a common occurence. Billy is dependant on corner calls to be effective. That's all he has. Fast balls on the corners. Since his fast ball is no longer over powering, he's just not all that effective any more. Shingo has filthy pitches. Foulke like filth.

The one good thing about Billy: come 2005 will any one want a closer with a 5+ era, & a WHIP in the high 1's but about 20-30 saves? Would the SOX want him back for a mil? 5.11 era, 1.38 WHIP OPS vs (LH 530, RH 833) That 833 is awful for a closer. Shingo's? (LH 1002, RH 232) But he has greatly improved vs LH of late.

Make Shingo the closer. Please. Experience + Post Season success (in Japan) = Sox winner.

You guys are depressing. Thanks for telling me my favorite young player in all of MLB will be exiting for greener pastures in the next few years.

========================================== Mon, May 3 @ TOR W5-4: Schow me the $! POG: Scott Schoeneweis (11 - dominating!) AOG: Scott Schoeneweis (11, 1r, 7ip) BOG: Carlos Lee (SB, 2 runs scored on his ab's (hon mention:Joe Crede (solo HR)) GoG: Juan Uribe (Play of the game) Note: SMALL-BALL=PRESSURE=ERRORS=WINS ========================================== CL(51)=5+15+10+11+10 JC=50 WH(44)=12+22+10 AR=32 FT(28)=26+2 SA(25)=14+11 JU(37)=7+16+14 MO=12+7 RG=9 SS(77/7=11)=35+0+10+7+0+25+0 CP=60 DM=0 ST=0 BK=72 ========================================== CHICAGO SOX 1ST -W Harris walked. 5 -M Ordonez walked, W Harris to second. 7,2 -W Harris to third, M Ordonez to second on wild pitch by K Ainsworth. 5,5 -C Lee walked. 5 WH=12 MO=12 CL=5 BALTIMORE 1ST -B Roberts walked. 5 -B Roberts stole second. 10 -B Roberts stole third. 15 -M Tejada grounded out to third, B Roberts scored. 5 SS=35 CHICAGO SOX 2ND -S Alomar Jr singled to right. 10 -W Harris singled to right center, S Alomar Jr to third. 20,4 -J Uribe walked, W Harris to second. 7,2 SA=14 WH=22 JU=7 BALTIMORE 2ND SS=0 CHICAGO SOX 3RD -C Lee walked. 5 -C Lee stole second. 10 CL=15 BALTIMORE 3RD -B Roberts reached on infield single to second. 10 SS=10 CHICAGO SOX 4TH -W Harris singled to right. 10 WH=10 BALTIMORE 4TH -R Palmeiro walked. 5 -J Lopez grounded out to pitcher, R Palmeiro to second.2,2 SS=7 CHICAGO SOX 5TH -C Lee singled to left. 10 CL=10 BALTIMORE 5TH SS=0 CHICAGO SOX 6TH -J Crede homered to left center. 50 JC=50 BALTIMORE 6TH -M Tejada walked. 5 -R Palmeiro singled to right, M Tejada to third. 20 SS=25 CHICAGO SOX 7TH -J Uribe singled to left center.10 -F Thomas singled to center, J Uribe to third. 20,4 -C Lee grounded into fielder's choice to third, J Uribe scored, 5,2 F Thomas safe at third on error by shortstop M Tejada, 2 C Lee safe at second on error by shortstop M Tejada. 2 -R Gload intentionally walked. 5 -A Rowand reached on infield single to shortstop, F Thomas RS, C Lee 3B, R Gload 2B. 30,2,2,2 -S Alomar Jr walked, C Lee scored, R Gload to third, A Rowand to second. 11,2,2,2 JU=16 FT=26 CL=11 RG=9 AR=32 SA=11 BALTIMORE 7TH SS=0 CHICAGO SOX 8TH -J Uribe safe at first on error by third baseman M Mora. 5 -M Ordonez walked, J Uribe to second. 7,2 -F Thomas grounded into double play, third to second to first, J Uribe to third. 2,2 -C Lee hit by pitch. J Uribe scored, C Lee to second on wild pitch by R Bauer. 10,5 JU=14 MO=7 FT=2 CL=10 BALTIMORE 8TH -C Politte relieved S Schoeneweis. -B Roberts doubled to deep center. 20 -M Mora reached on infield single to catcher, B Roberts to third. 15 -M Tejada reached on infield single to pitcher, B Roberts scored, M Mora to second. 25 CP=60 -D Marte relieved C Politte. DM=0 -S Takatsu relieved D Marte. ST=0 CHICAGO SOX 9TH BALTIMORE 9TH -B Koch relieved S Takatsu. -J Gibbons walked. 5 -B Surhoff walked, J Gibbons to second. 7 -J Gibbons to third, B Surhoff to second on wild pitch by B Koch. 10 -B Roberts walked. 5 -M Mora singled to right, J Gibbons and B Surhoff scored, B Roberts to third. 10+10+15+10 BK=72

These threads are getting me pissed! This is like the damn Harold Reynolds thread! What team have you been watching for the last 4 YEARS? The team I've been watching is a streak hitting team that goes cold just as fast as it goes hot! So the idea that we have a manager that KNOWS how to manufacture runs when the hits are scarce tickles me pink! We had 5 hits in the game. Two by Harris, a HR by Thomas, 1 by Lee & 1 by Rowand. In Sat's game we had 5 hits as well. That 2 wins, 10 hits, 2 games. That's called SMALL ball, & on this team it's long over due.

I got the numbers to bury that nimrod's own assertion: 2004: CP OB/AB .329, RS/OB .533 FT OB/AB .666, RS/OB .364 2003: CP OB/AB .347, RS/OB .149 FT OB/AB .473, RS/OB .337 2002: CP OB/AB .299, RS/OB .401 FT OB/AB .434, RS/OB .339 The only full season to compare the 2 is 2002 & it's about a .060 difference! Harold why don't you form a fantasy team with the Patterson's of the league & I'll form mine with Giambi, Thomas, & the other slow boppers in the league & let's see who comes out ahead. You'd have to be F'g the dumbest manager in the world to take Patterson's 329 OBP over Thomas' 666 right now. As the season plays out watch the RS/OB shrink quickly on CP.