JUGGERNAUT

As an aside note some of you need to be reminded that although this is expected to be a serious forum it is still on a sports site. Trash talking is expected but should be stopped when some one becomes offended. Please continue to weigh in on measures you believe would be useful to getting admins to stop suspending kids who show an allegiance to religion during their non-class time at school. I would like to expand upon this incendiary theme because I'm in strong disagreement as to how to interpret this. From my length study of the founders & the foundation of the articles in the US Const this was believed to be speech inciting riot or rebellion. People might not be aware that at the time the Const was created there were many in America who did not support the revolutionists cause. The revolutionists believed in free speech so long as it did not threaten to dissolve the union. So in my opinion based on my research to suggest that praying a rosary at lunch would somehow approach being incendiary is insane. There's simply no justification for this. It's clearly a bias against kids who believe strongly in the Christian faith & should not be tolerated. No bias should be tolerated against kids of any faith. I would hope that most on this board will agree on that point. The next point I expect there to be disagreement. I do not believe students should be suspended for politcal incorrectness either. However; at a high school age we are still dealing with minors & not adults. In a kid-friendly American state to which we aspire today, censorship is reasonable at that age. Censorship in college is not. College is always suppose to represent a free-thinking exchange of ideas generated from what is being taught. You are no longer a minor when you reach college years. That being said things that are considered non kid friendly on public TV & radio should not be allowed in high school. A child who says something requiring a bleep should be suspended or at the very least serve detention & have their parents notified & require their parents to come to school for talks to lift the detention. That's right I believe a child should serve detention until the parent has made the time to talk to the school.

This is a smart move. No QB goes a whole season in the NFC. Most are out for several games if not more. If you want to win in this league your #2 needs to be nearly as good as your #1.

I don't think this requires a separate thread so here's my idea. Aristotle is known for saying the best education is to give a student a question have them go home & try to solve it, & hopefully create a new question. The basis of this is that interactive & engaging education is the best. So here's my idea: Before class starts in a home room have 1 student from each class offer a quote. It can be anything so long as it's under 1 minute. Every day a new student will be picked & let it go round robin. The quote must be void of profanity & appropriate to morality. The teacher can entertain a discuss if they wish for about 5 minutes on the quote. Or they can simply begin class. It would seem to me this would be the easiest & cheapest action to begin the road of endoctrinating American kids with core themes of morality. Best of all it will demonstrate to them the power of free speech. If you wish to quote Lenon or Lenin so be it. Imagine the free expression of ideas occuring in schools across America every day at the start of school. What simple yet powerful measure could better further the melting pot? Sure there might be some racists, & others amongst the class that will use their time to incite immoral thoughts. But the best way to defeat these ideas is to challenge them rather than silence them. It would be the job of the teacher to initiate that challenge if a student doesn't beat them to it. No immoral ideology should ever go unchallenged in a class room. An atheist can stand up & quote Aristotle, a Buddhist can quote Buddha, a Jew can quote Moses, a Muslim can quote from the Koran, an asian can quote Confuscious, & a Christian can quote Jesus, & so on & so forth.

I'm over-budget on time so I'll make it quick. Of the G7 nations 3 of them are the most visible to the world: US, UK, Japan. The home companies in these countries can be seen in every market place in the world today. We are products of Western education where we do not equate Mc Donalds as a form of imperialism. The rest of the world does. Included the educated. It is the same as with 9/11. Though the world wept for the souls lost that day, they do not weep for America itself. Not for that reason. They see us as the biggest imperialist in the world today & with both a harsh history & modern remembrance of UK imperialism they do not distinquish between the two. For better or worse we are seen as the Goliath & any one who opposes us for better or for worse is seen in the light of David. I wish there was a way we could change it but we do not control America's capitalist engine around the world. That is left to McD's, Nike, GAP, etc. Their sweat shops do more harm to America's image overseas then they do to their own images here in the states.

Response to: http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic...45entry334206 Since we are talking about culture & tradition in this thread I think the 60% figure still has merit. It's true that it doesn't reflect people who routinely pray or worship God but it does reflect people who honor their families beliefs enough to count them among them. The 60% of Americans might not show up to Church weekly but they do come out in strength & numbers around the 2 major Christian holidays in America: Christmas & Easter. The Churches are usually standing room only on these days in all denominations whereas they are usually only a 1/3rd filled on others. That does have meaning. The best way to show the link between Christian prayer & morality is to show the prayers of the rosary: Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee Blessed thy fruit, & blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners Now & at the hour of our death Amen. Our Father who art in Heaven Hallowed be they name Thy Kingdom done Thy will be done On Earth As it is in Heaven Give us this day our daily bread And forgive us our trespasses As we forgive those who trespass against us And lead us not in to temptation, but deliver us from evil. For the Kingdom, the Power, & the glory are yours now & forever. Core themes of moral philosophy expressed in these prayers: humility, forgiveness, peace on Earth, repentance, & gratitude. To suggest that these prayers are some how immoral is crazy. No less crazy to think that the absence of prayer is atheistic or that atheism is immoral. There are no doubt atheists who believe in the core themes expressed in these prayers. Imagine that God is an alien civilization from another Universe & it doesn't change those themes. That's why they are considered core themes. They exist in Western & Eastern philosophies & they are being included in Eastern education today. They are all but void in America's education system. It's not enough to say them once or year or even once a semester. They need to be re-inforced daily & they need to grow in understanding as a child grows. Likewise, the themes present in those prayers above are not all-encompassing. There are several others. This is definitely the most important issue America faces today because when you are an owner of company & have a choice between choosing workers who are endoctrinated in these values & cost less than American ones where are you going to entrust your capital? Part of the exodus of white collar jobs overseas & in places like Bombay deals with trust as much as it does money. Consider a call center if you will. Dell, MCI, & many others have to trust that the people in Bombay will be polite & helpful to Americans seeking help. Part of that trust comes from how the people there are endoctrinated to do the work. There is no end to the number of back office jobs that can go overseas. Legal work was thought to be exempt because the privacy issues but even that has proven not to be an obstacle. If you think the cheating, lying, & attitude is not going to take it's toll on America's work force, guess again. These kids come into the work force with the attitude that America owes them a job & that it's in their best interest to get some one else to do the work. They essentially want a job predicated on bull s*** because that's pretty much what they did for the 16 yrs of their education. Not all of course, but enough to where it will create a stigma upon the work force in general. I have another idea that I will mention in a new post.

I'll respond to this in the culture thread because it is a minor point in this thread. http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18395

Some of you expressed concern of this problem in schools. Today there are ways to deal with it & in light of more data coming from the Columbine event seems to suggest that it should no longer be ignored. I guess you could ask that if there was greater surveillance & a greater loss of privacy at Columbine could the massacre have been prevented? Morality & ethics classes would certainly help sway some to being good kids, but it's not a solution by itself. We know that metal detectors are in place at Chicago HS, but that's more of a knee jerk reaction than a solution. What's at the core issue here is the privacy of a student vs the right to provide a safe & secure environment for the school. It's pretty close to the central issue on terrorism as well. I'm going to take the stance that safe & secure is more important than privacy when it comes to schools. Having taken that stance, technology can be used to remove privacy from the school. The cost is not cheap but there is no way the ACLU would allow this to be budgeted & controlled at the Federal level. Likewise it's too intrusive at the state level so ultimately this cost & control needs to fall on the shoulders of the tax payers at the district level. Maybe even the school level. You need to install the cameras, mics, & of course the people to watch & review. Volunteers should be welcome to keep the cost down. In theory you could completely cover the school so that no bullying event goes unrecorded. With that kind of control, it's likely bullying would end within the school grounds in a matter of months. Suspension alone would not be enough. If caught bullying susbstantial fines would be levied. That would inspire even the deadbeat parents. Now before the Big Brother cats weigh on remember that corruption can be prevented with effective checks & balances. I'll save that for another day.

Last post on this thread for today. I need to budget time on this. To be honest I'm not sure who that reply was for. They no longer appear on the page. In general it was for any one advocating religious persecution is ok. In my opinion there should be no distinction between a child who shows up to school wearing HP attire or with HP stuff & a HP book & one who shows up with a Bible a rosary. The latter should not be suspended while the other is welcome. That's the gneeral point. This thread is not about school prayer. This thread is about religious persecution. We are talking individual kids being suspended by admins for these reasons alone. On the issue of "bullies" in school I'll create a separate thread so we can discuss it in full. There are solutions but they differ in cost. I do believe integrating a system of morality in social science/world history can help change the behavior of some, but there will always be bad apples. There are technological ways to address them so let's discuss this in a separate thread.

I'm calling it quits for today. I have to budget the time I can spend on this.

World history should be taught with the inclusion of social science of the regions being studied. It is more important to learn about the culture & traditions that define the people in a region than the major events that occured in that region. That's not to say that the major events are not important because they do help shape the culture & traditions, but they are less important. What could be better preparation for a world economy? I'll add this. There is core of central values in all of the leading philosophies: being kind, honesty, etc. These would be the values that would be studied in the context of world history through the PERSPECTIVE of the people of the region. Wrt to caps I think it's perfectly acceptable to cap certain words that you want to draw emphasis on. Bold takes more key strokes so why bother?

Point 1: The 60% figure represents those that identify themselves as Christian. It does not mean that they go to Church, were Baptized, went to Catholic schools, or any other religious association. I think it's actually higher. I think the actual number is like 170 million. I don't remember. But to illustrate the loose association the predominant answer of young people to the poll is "well my Mom is so I guess that makes me one". In other words it more closely resembles America as a whole than anything else. The number that acticely participate is more like 30% wrt to Christians. About 25-30 million Catholics & then all the other denominations. Point 2: You shouldn't equate the absence of prayer in schools with atheism in general. The absence of prayer in schools is a much bigger problem dealing with the absence of the teaching morality & ethics in schools. Prayer in schools is simply the cheapest & quickest means to bring that back. But as this debate evolved so to as the country to where we are more sophisticated now to where we can look beyond the most cheapest & quickest means to solve a problem. That's what this thread is specifically dealing with.

To which I will give you the same answer: none. You are not punting history or social science but rather expanding it to include philosophy. Morality is after all an application of philosophy. Likewise behavioral science & psychology come into play with philosophy. The Nazi & Communist references are in poor taste. Both of these systems of govt are predicated on the philosophies of the intrepretation of a few man. A national standard based on the world's most LEADing philosophies of life is an entirely different thing. I think that's the part you're not understand. World history should be taught with the inclusion of social science of the regions being studied. It is more important to learn about the culture & traditions that define the people in a region than the major events that occured in that region. That's not to say that the major events are not important because they do help shape the culture & traditions, but they are less important. What could be better preparation for a world economy?

I was never on a high horse. I recognize this as a sports message board & that sparing with words is par for the course. I never called any one out on being unkind or mean-spirited. But I do believe when others weigh in on that subject in detail it's time to tone it down. So that is what I am doing. With respect to your link: G7 & murder rate: This stat is meaningless without a reference in per capita income. Reasons: 1) The US has the most comprehensive records for violent crime amongst the G7 nations because the US spends more $'s per district than any of the G7 nations. If you break down the crime region of G7's per district their most capital driven districts have greater crime rates than in the US. Hong Kong is a prime example. 2) The US has one of the best records on treatment of violent criminals. Even with the death penalty the %'s of deaths, brutailities, beatings of violent criminals in the US is much lower than any of the G7 nations. There are more but basically the consensus is that has the G7 evolve more towards capitalistic states & improve their abilities to record violent crimes they will likewise resemble the US rates. Atheists w lower divorce rates: Again this sample does not distinguish between practicing & non-practicing religious groups & there is a big difference between those groups. To say that a group that represents about 10% of the US population has a lower divorce rate than a group representing about 60% of the US population is not of much value. I do not know of any polls that compare atheists to the practicing groups but comparings a 10% group to about a 30% group would carry much greater weight. Conclusion: I do not recall where it was ever said that atheists are immoral. Like all groups this one has it's good & bad seeds as well. From my own personal experience I have found most atheists to be centrally grounded in moral philosophies & that is what ultimately determines the morality of a person. I don't see how this added fuel to the fire in this thread since this thread is mostly concerned with moral philosophies & the need to teach them in schools. The only aspect that religion has in that is that Jesus should be included in that discussion as much as Aristotle. In otherwords it should be all-encompassing. A melting pot of philosophical views that relate to a core.

History should always have been taught in the conjunction with morality & philosophy. Geography is an apparent part of World history.

A personal attack is something like so-and-so you're an idiot. There is a personal reference in that attack. Referring to what someone says as being idiotic, clueless, or stupid is not a personal attack. You are attacking what they said & not who they are. In a sports message board it's assumed that these things are never taken seriously and are par for the course. However; I do believe that when others call attention to them in a serious light (like you have) they should stop. It may get boring but it will be more civil. If you are that concerned over kids abuse on other kids in schools for whatever reason (weak, gay, brainy, etc.) then I suggest you start a new thread & discuss it. This thread deals specifically with the issue of admins suspending students for showing any Christian religious association in their non-class time at schools. For this case to be working it's way up to the Supreme court seeking a class action ruling it certainly is much greater than a few or rare cases. But once again to draw distinction to your central concern, abuse by a teacher/admin in any circumstance is far more serious than abuse by a kid.

You're post appears hostile but I will try to be kind ..again. There are over 100 million people in America who care whether a child can carry a bible, koran, or any other religious book to school with them to read during their free time. So to state that you're cares are more important than theirs is arrogant. Now to reply to your specifics: Is the teacher/admin causing the abuse of the homosexual? If not, why do you think any authoritative entity would be able to address that? If there is no representation of authority that can address it then would it not fall into a classification as something we have no control over? What makes you think that there is anything that can be done to prevent abuse of homo sexuals any more so than to prevent abuse of weak kids? Given that weak kids are picked on by & large more than homo sexuals at high school why should we ignore the abuse of the weak kids & deal only with the abuse of the homo sexuals? I understand why you choose this direction in your argument but it really has no basis. Being able to bring a rosary to school so that you can say it to lunch is an issue dealing with teachers/admins. People in authority. It's two entirely different issues. Two entirely different sets of problems. One you can actually do something about since they have to answer to authority & one you can do little about. Though I might add, that teaching morality at an early age would probably help stop the abuse of both the homosexual & weak kids.

No, that is US civil code. It is never referred to as US moral code. I answered the basis of an evolution of morality to ethics classes in the previous post. Your suggestion is that the US civil code is enough & nothing more is needed. So why don't you discuss your foundation for that argument? I don't need links, just list the basis points to support that argument.

Now this is an example of a hostile post. To which I will respond kindly. Once again, I made this distinction because it was obvious by some of the posters they like you were lumping them together. So I have clearly drawn a distinction between the too. For those who just joined & yourself generally speaking ethics applies to specific areas. There are medical ethics, computer science ethics, & material science ethics, electronics ethics, etc. They primarily deal with cause & effect relationships within that discipline. Those are better left for college years. General concepts of business ethics can be taught in High School along the line of ecnomics classes. Generally speaking ethics requires greater knowledge of areas to which it is being applied & are better left for high school & college. Morality on the other hand deals with behavioral & psychological science & the core concepts can be started in 5th/6th grade. Basically the years a child begins to cover wars in social science & history. Familarity of it can be introduced as early as 1st grade by simply quoting a philosopher in home room & then entertaining a few minutes of discussion about the quote. Interactive learning time & again is considered the best means to educate. Why one would be hostile to that is beyond me. Aristotle alone can be used to emphasize the importance of homework to young kids. I think it would be pretty cool if kids in general grew up respecting these guys.

Though I can't speak for all, I certainly bear no hostility towards any one here. I welcome debates & good arguments so as to better hone my own. I feel a sense of accomplishment when faced with hostility from others that I try to work a compromise. I feel that is clearly prevalent on this subject as it has evolved over the past few days. I apologize for not responding to each poster individually & the confusion that has caused at times. I tried to cut down the number of posts due to time & bandwidth constraints. As a summary through active debate we have moved from majority based school prayer to a national non-religious ethics & morality based initiative in school. I think that's accomplishment. I wish congress could do as much. Would I have reached this direction without you? Probably not. We all grow very comfortable & agreeable to that which is prevalent in our lives. It takes active debate of differing opinions to take us in new directions.

Social science. What part of bulk of parents did you equate to myself? I actively home school & they are on course towards AP exams.

I'll be nice. Yes all of that was included in my classes as well. But it was given minor attention. The focus was to instill in the engineer the science aspect of their actions so they aware of the consequences. I personally think the more an engineering driven ethics class steers towards morality & away from the science the less value it has but that's my opinion. There are morality classes & ethics classes & in an engineering degree you better know the ethics involved in your design. You better know how to manage safety vs cost.

This goes out to Steff as well. I don't reply to every post. I read the replies of several people & then try to include a response to all of them in one post. That one post usually quotes that last post I've read. So sometimes it looks like I'm replying to you about something that you hadn't mention. I think instead I will just reply in general & use abbrev quotes. I don't get a lot of time to do this so I can't reply to each individual post.

I don't disagree with you, but that's simply a dream wish. There are very disciplined parents in America who do home school their children on top of regular school. This is reflective in the increasing numbers of students taking advance placement exams to earn college credits in high school. Okafor is a prime example of this. But by & large the bulk of parents see school as baby sitters. They look to school as the guardian of their child with the responsibility to educate their child. They spend their time with their children being friends & doing friend things together. They don't challenge their child but they greatly involve their child in activities so that their child has more opportunities than they ever had. On top of that, the bulk of parents are simply not qualified to teach ethics or morality to their children. If every parent is teaching their own version how will that reflect in society? It is better to teach a national standard & then have the parent expand upon that if they can.

Pardon me? Other than the need to respect copyrights & patents what exactly did you say that was any different? What do you think limits & failures mean in specifications? With respect to copyrights & patents it was covered in all classes but more along the lines of the engineering details. In other words if a patent includes a specification range & you wish to mimic the patent without infringing upon it what are the acceptable parameters in doing so. Getting back to the point of the thread ethics classes in college deal mostly with specific disciplines so they should not be confused with morality classes which are more along the lines of social & psychological behavior science.

Trying to sift through a point in what you're saying is a chore. What are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that no child should be allowed to carry a bible, wear a crucifix, pray the rosary in a public school because YOU believe this will lead to gay people in the school getting beat up on? Is that what you're trying to say? Do you know how stupid that sounds?