JUGGERNAUT

For today only I will refer to him as Jay Maronatti. He has written an entertaining, informative, & solid article for a change. To the un-experienced reader it looks like he is exhaulting the White Sox. But to those who know better he is really echoing the frustration that he & all his brethren Cub fans are feeling. If there is a weakness in it it lies in the failure to mention the Oakland A's series. Arguably the most dissapointing series the WSox have played this year. All total 1/2 doz WSox players were plunked & w little to no retailiation from the WSox. Would that series have played out in the WSox favor if Ozzie is screaming bloody murder after the first plunking by Zito? I think so. Zito like Maddux is known for his control. The truth is that series got away from the WSox because Oakland was not afraid to throw inside. Not just the inside corner of the plate but inside the batter's box as well. The WSox should have done the same & would have won it if they had done so. Likewise if you set that kind of tone early (mano-e-mano) then it's more likely Crede is awarded his base after being plunked. I think Ozzie learned a lot in that series & I would be surprised if the WSox don't go (mano-e-mano) from here on out. If you throw inside on us, we'll throw inside on you. Let the pitches land where they may.

I've read nothing that strongly suggests to me that C Lee was an idiot in the clubhouse. I think the Marte stuff was grossly exagerated. If that was true, just imagine the infighting that must have gone on with Maggs & Ozzie. I think most of that stuff is exagerated. Just like it was with AJ in SF. As for his talent to run the base pads I would say he has above average ability but his mental lapses make him below average. But I can live with that when you consider his money stats: HRs, RBI's, RISP, & RON.

I strongly disagree with this. Regardless of the numbers he puts up in the 2nd half he's a much greater injury risk going for. That's going to drive down his price considerably. If he helps the White Sox win in the post season is that not worth $10M in 2006? What's likely to happen is that the WSox will work out a contract extension that he's heavy on performance & health incentives. Of all the players on the WSox right now Thomas is the most likely to accept less $'s, & less years for a shot at the WS. Is there any reason to think the WSox are not WS contenders now?

No way. Everett has been a BIG part of the timely hitting getting us these leads. Sweeney perhaps but not Anderson. BMac is becoming a household name in Chicago. That's not just a future ace your trading away but a potential marquee player. Gagne is too expensive & too much of a risk coming off the DL to pay that high of a price. If LA is looking to swap good relief pitching at a low cost for great relief pitching at a high cost then ok. I'm willing to do a trade like that. But there is no way I'd give up a top prospect or one of our best hitters to get him. There will be a LOT of options to trade for a closer before the deadline. Gagne is probably the most costly of them all. I agree with the general theory that you trade for the dominant closer & make Hermy the setup man & this team is World Series bound. Especially with a healthy Thomas. But there are MANY other candidates: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/stats/bypositi...fied=1&sort=106 I can't think of a year when there were so many good names that should be available near the deadline. Either nearing the end of a contract or their team is hopeless & in need of a change. If I had to guess I believe KW will pull the trigger before the deadline to get one of them. If I had my choice it would be Guardado. We have good relations with the M's as trade partners.

It depends on a team's depth. If a team has strong relief depth (incl their ml's) they will look to shore up their greatest weakness relying on that depth. LAA might fit that mold. Consider the WSox as an example. We would only trade Frank because with Everett our depth at DH is strong. Our greatest weakness is the lack of a dominating relief pitcher. Unless we can shore that up it makes no sense in trading Frank. You don't trade your depth for the future in a year you could go to the WS. Koney is unsigned & not likely to return. There is no one on the team now or in the minors that has Frank's HR potential going forward. He has not been healthy over the last contract so this greatly favors the WSox in a contract extension for Frank. Nomar went from a guaranteed 60M/5 to an 8M/1 not because of his play but because of his health. I see Frank in a similar boat. Since F-ROD was mentioned let's be realistic. If LAA were to trade him for Frank they are essentially trading away a part of their future for a trip to the post season this year. Without F-ROD they are not likely to advance in the post season. But w/out Thomas they are not likely to get there.

Beane is not afraid to take on big money players with short term contracts. He's demonstrated that over the years. Plus it's not out of the question for the White Sox to throw in a little cash to get the deal done. It happens all the time in MLB trades. That's what the Pirates did in the Kendall trade. Durazo, Hatteberg, & Koney could have shared DH+1B duties to get them all adequate AB's. Not much different than what Ozzie is doing with Dye, Everett, & eventually Thomas. If the A's are in need of getting a man on in late innings replace Koney with Hatteberg. If they are in need of a big hit or a HR bench replace Hatteberg with Koney. However; Beane would have been more likely to trade either Durazo or Hatteberg to fill another weakness having obtained Koney. Finally there's too much bashing of Koney's OBP. 2005 vs LH .139A .295O .333S; vs. RH .243A .353O .478S 2004 vs LH .288A .372O .577S; vs RH .273A .354O .518S That was not a weakness for him in 2004. His 2004 numbers greatly reduce the risk to Beane in that area.

The White Sox do have a weakness looking towards the post season. They lack a dominating bullpen. We saw that in yesterday's game. You can't simply ignore the numbers of past years for the guys in our pen. 12L: SP 6, RP 6 It's not lack of hitting that has kept us from being better. We have held the lead pitching into the 8th & 9th in nearly all of the games we've played. If we were to trade Thomas it should be for nothing less than a low risk dominating relief pitcher.

I've been banned once this year for simply being argumentative in another post. No violation of a rule & nothing any worse than that of any other member posting in that thread. I'm well aware that when it comes to certain moderators of this site I do not share their political or anti-religious views & that is going to stack the deck against me in any & all threads. Though it reaks of injustice it is still better than WSI. Get into a baseball argument with a moderator over there & you will be banned for life. For that I am thankful to SOXTALK because they provide an outlet for WSox fans like myself. You have not convinced me that the WSox needed to trade C Lee to get Pods. I have not convinced you that they could have gotten Pods for less than the value of C Lee. So let's just respectfully disagree on that issue & move on.

I'm not so sure about that. F-ROD was instrumental in helping the LAA win a World Series. When you get to the post season most of the teams you face have good pitching. Dominating pitching usually makes the difference. I agree I don't see him being available either. He's only in his 3rd yr. If I were GM of the WSox I'm not trading Frank for equal value. Either LAA is willing to overpay because of their dire circumstances or forget it. I can't be blinded by the fact either that we are 31-12 w/out Frank & given that we have held the lead in over 40 of those games at one time I can't help think that we would be even better with a player like F-ROD.

When their opinion has some basis in common sense, logic, or factual knowledge then I will lean towards it. Until then I'll stick with mine. If you don't like it then try rebutting it with something worthy of my time. I'm out of this thread. For the rest of you who love to digress these down to personal attack threads - have at it. Such actions reflect on your maturity level.

Both Kotsay & Byrnes were mentioned in those rumors because Beane was not sure he would be able to sign Kotsay to an extension. This was at the time there was still hope in them keeping their aces as well. As for Hatteberg & Durazo .. please. We are talking apples & oranges in comparison to Koney. Just look at their HR numbers the past 3 yrs! No one will ever really know because after all as fans are information comes from trade rumors reported by sports media. Sometimes those rumors are fabricated because a writer wants a trade to happen. But to suggest the A's did not have a need for Koney is foolish. It undermines the value of his 41HR, 117RBI season in 2004.

If you want to believe that KW couldn't not have gotten Pods for anything less than C Lee then that's your problem. But those of us who follow the game & not just the WSox know better. The same applies towards 3-way poss w Konerko. The biggest sign of ignorance in this thread is the statement that Everett can't be an adequate 1B because he has no experience. That's ignorant of how many players in the game over the years who have converted to 1B w/out having any experience there. It happens all the time. As for the statistics remarks it comes as no surprise that if a person doesn't understand the value of a statistic they will view it as being meaningless.

Did you bother to follow any of the trade rumors involving Oakland this past year? Apparently not. Beane was desperate to land a HR hitter to replace what was lost in Tejada. OBP was not as high a priority as HRs.

It's a known fact he was on the trade block at the time. And a 3-way involving Konerko is not exclusive to the A's. There were other teams interested in Koney's HR power that likewise had good hitting OFers that could have been used. On what basis do you have to claim Everett would suck at 1B? He's below average in errors, above average in assists, & has claim to several web gems in his career. What makes you think he's any less of an athlete than Koney to make plays at 1B? Of course Carl would not have to play there all the time because we had Gload coming off a good year. They could have shared DH/1B duties until Thomas returned. It's one think to love Konerko but quite another to allow that love to blind you in ignorance.

We never should have traded C Lee. It's w/out a doubt we needed Pods but we didn't have to trade Lee to get him. We could have worked a 3 way trade using Koney to get to Pods. Milw was looking for a proven hitter to play in the OF. Several teams had that. Those teams were looking for a proven hitter to play 1B. But when I heard that it was Milw & checked to see that they are in fact the cross-league rival of the Twins I said if it had to be any team thank God it was the Brewers. They've got 4 more with the Twins & I expect Lee to come up big in most of them. Watching Lee make a difference against the Cubs is always a good thing. The best thing about the Lee trade is that there are no hard feelings. Ozzie's mouth nearly jeaopardized that but Lee answered those claims hard with the big slide into 2B that radically altered the Cubs season. Lee has not received a contract extension yet. That keeps the WSox in the running for getting him back in 2007.

The weak minded resort to personal attacks when they have nothing of value to say. It is true that the Brewer's did not want Konerko but what about the A's? Beane has routinely traded for top rent a player talent to keep his team competitve. It's possible a 3-way could have been worked out sending Koney to the A's, Kotsay & an arm to the Brewers, & Pods & Vizcy to the White Sox. There were other 3-way possibilities as well. The best GM's exhaust them all before over-paying. But if you ignore the 3-way possibilities then the only other way to get Pods & Vizcy was probably for the White Sox to give up Crede & an arm. I don't think it would cost Garland or BMac but probably the next guy in line. Crede is an enigma that continues to frustrate both KW & all of us fantasy GMs. He's capable of being an all-star 3B but he's so damn inconsistent. If I had been the GM I would have exhausted all 3 way possibilities of dealing Koney for Pods. Not because I have anything against Koney but rather because I had Lee signed for 2 yrs & Koney for 1. Lee's production is likely to meet or exceed Koney's in that time & knowing I work for the White Sox I'm unlikely to sign either of them beyond their current contract. As for who plays 1B, I have Gload as a reserve & Everett could play the position. Especially if he had an entire ST to work at it. He can move about as well as Koney & doesn't have a bad arm either. Of all the fielding positions 1B is the easiest to replace. My 2005 WSox would have featured: LF-Pods, CF-Rowand, RF-Lee 3B-Crede, SS-Uribe, 2B-Iguchi, 1B-Everett/Gload C-AJ, DH-(Best hitter in the WSox ml's)/Thomas I don't need Dye if I'm keeping Lee.

I'm one of the biggest Thomas fans in the world but I can't argue with his general premise. The LAA are leading their division & have spent a fortune to do so. Vladdy just got hurt. It's a team who is desperate for a hitter like Thomas with good talent to trade. I'm not saying do it, but you would be a fool not to see what they are offering.

Jermaine Dye is struggling but so are other big names: Angel Berroa KCR, Jason Kendall OAK, Victor Martinez CLE, Michael Cuddyer MIN, Ruben Gotay KCR, Eric Chavez OAK, & Aaron Boone CLE. COL needs RP. Particularly a closer. Shingo/Marte + Dye could probably land Wilson. I say no. Look at their RON #'s: JD 2004 .264A .341O .460S vs PW 2004 .209A .287O .309S JD 2005 .128A .196O .255S vs PW 2005 .250A .313O .467S There is a huge disparity in salary but I've read COL is willing to pick up a major portion of Wilson's $'s. But I still believe it is more likely that by season's end Dye will produce more than Wilson in RON sits. That's what matters most with this team.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-sox14.html This season is incredible! After gaining the lead in their 36th consecutive game this year the White Sox moved up to 5th on the all time list in this category. Tying the 1942 NYY & BOS teams. The record remains 48 set by the 1998 NYY's between July & Aug of that year. Each time they gain the lead before the 9th they pad the record they own: Most consecutive games led from the start of the season. This is big deal because the overall offense numbers are not very good. The Sox had 19 LOB last night. But timing is everything in this game. Konerko may be treading the Mendoza line but his broken bat hit was the big play of the game. It's probably the difference between winning & losing last night. Want to talk to Ozzie about it? [email protected]

By media accounts they see Thomas joining the White Sox after 10-17 games in Charlotte. He might still make the series in Wrigley.

Here's the thing about our off-season. First off it started in 2004. It's not really an off-season as much as rebuilding the team. It's not easy to do. Many teams take several years & the results are mixed. New faces in 04 & 05: Uribe, Garcia, Hernandez, Contra, Everett, Pods, Dye, Iguchi, Politte, Viz, Hermy, AJ, Widger, P Ozuna, Timo Perez, Ross Gload, Neal Cotts. A total of 18 new faces in less than 2 yrs on the 25 man roster. This bunch owns a 26-9 record. Best in the majors. In the race for homefield adv in the ALCS the O's are 3.5 gb of the White Sox.

I'm not sure if they have a need for him but if the M's were interested I'm sure Shingo would be on the next flight to Seattle. There are teams I'm sure Shingo would waive the clause for. Assuming of cause such a clause exists.

http://www.historicbaseball.com/scplayers/jacksonmedia.html Unbelievable! The 1919 stink was being swept under the rug until the Cub reared it's ugly head. On Sept 2, 1920 the Chicago Herald and Examiner reported that the Aug 31 Philadelphia Phillies-Chicago Cubs game had been fixed for the Cubs to lose. Soon thereafter the story appeared on the front page of the Chicago Tribune sports section calling for an investigation of that game and the 1919 WS. On Sept 7, 1920 during the initial investigation the grand jury expanded the investigation of the Aug 31 game to include the 1919 World Series. The rest is history. The Aug 31 game soon became a footnote in the wake of the 1919 WS. The Cleveland Indians went on to win the 1920 WS after edging out the Chicago White Sox for the AL pennant. The White Sox were leading in the pennant race until late Sept when the suspensions came after the 1919 WS investigation. It is generally believed that had this not happened the White Sox would have won the AL pennant & the 1920 WS. I guess you could say the crooked Cub players cost the White Sox & the City of Chicago another World Series.

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/worldseries/1906.html This is my dream. It would be great to see it live 99 yrs later. The South Side White Sox against the West Side Cubs. The Hitless Wonders also showed their opportunistic nature, managing a 2-2 tie in games despite the meager offense. Scores: Gm 1: Sox 2-1 , Gm 2: Cub 7-1 , Gm 3: Sox 3-0, Gm 4: Cub 1-0, Gm 5: Sox 8-6, Gm 6: Sox 8-3. Sox hit .198 & the Cub hit .196 over the 6 gms. http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/worldseries/1917.html Not as memorable.

http://www.1918redsox.com/why.htm -"possibility that the 1918 World Series between the Red Sox & Cubs may have been fixed." -"many suspicious on-field actions, almost all of them by the Chicago Cubs, who lost the Series in six games." http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:SAuNrnz...ld+Series&hl=en The players threatened to strike on the even of the 5th game of the WS.