witesoxfan

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:37 AM) It isn't easy. It is why saying you could have a top farm system if you wanted a top farm system is ridiculous. Thank you for agreeing with me. But if you look at the totals of my chart, the White Sox are way below the average team in drafting WAR. As I mentioned, they haven't had a homegrown hitter but up a 3 WAR since Joe Crede in 2006. Since 2006, the average team has had 7 seasons of homegrown hitters putting up a 3 war. They also didn't have a 2 WAR hitter for them in any draft from 2001-2007. You are saying "show me one team", if everyone is terrible at it, why from 2001-2007 did the White Sox total WAR drafted come out to less than half league average? The league average was 94.7. The White Sox drafted 44.6. But then you said you weren't talking about the team itself but instead the top picks. I do agree that Williams was exaggerating to some extent, but Reinsdorf really did hamstring him in those situations because he was unwilling to pay overslot for players. A ton of people on the board wanted the Sox to draft Rick Porcello, but because he was a Boras client and was going to go overslot, we knew there was a 0% chance of it happening. Then they took Aaron Poreda - who the f is this? - and the Tigers took Porcello shortly there after. Williams saying "we could have a good minor league system if we wanted" is a little bit of exaggeration, but he also did allocate most of that money to the MLB team. It would have been better had they spent $90 million on the MLB team instead. In hindsight, they probably should have, but they are trying to fix that problem now. Hopefully in 2-4 years, they have a top 10 minor league system and are producing talent all over the place.

I will in about 40 minutes. Also, the phrase "DO YOU KNOW WHO THIS IS? THIS IS THE 2007 POSTER OF THE YEAR" came up a lot too.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 10, 2014 -> 09:02 AM) It just shows the White Sox have consistently missed during this century. I am not putting in guys like Pujols, I am using guys selected right around where the Sox selected and guys who signed for basically slot money. They have been wrong so many times, and the quote that KW could have had a top farm system if he wanted still requires the White Sox to select the correct players, no matter how much they are willing to pay them. They, since 2001, have not show a constitent ability to do that. Show me one team that has done a consistent job of getting the right players. The Red Sox, maybe? But even they only have 4 players since 2000 with 5 or more WAR. The Cardinals have 2. It's not easy to consistently pick players right. Not even the two best teams in the majors have done so.

Also, I will try and upload it later, but Saturday was America Day. So was Sunday. So is today. In fact, every day is America Day except for July 4th. That's just the day we celebrate our independence from the Brits.

Also, this thread is ridiculous because Williams himself said that the two options prior to the 2011 season were rebuilding or going for it one more time, and it sort of sounded like he preferred rebuilding but Jerry wanted to go for it, so they went out and signed Dunn and Crain and whoever else and they tried to put it all together and the entire team flopped.

This thread is not nearly as popular as it has been in the past. Went to Fargo this weekend and pretty much all I said was "Do you even lift bro?"

You guys have it all wrong. The best way to cook a steak is with a washing machine. And then an Adam Dunn dryer.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 11:36 AM) This makes no sense. You're saying the Sox don't need to keep adding pitching? Or don't need to continue pursuing opportunities to add lower risk values to the organization regardless of where those opportunities exist on the field? QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 08:20 AM) This isn't exactly true, as the Sox can always use pitching, but just because something is "on sale" does not mean it is appropriate to buy it. That is literally in the post you quoted. I also missed it before, but how does adding Jimenez or Santana *LOWER* the risk value? If anything, it increases the risk because you suddenly NEED these high priced pitchers to do well or you're screwed. If Paulino or Johnson or Rienzo or Surkamp suck, then who really gives a flying f***? No, buying things you don't need no matter what does not save you money. It costs you money. You don't save money by spending money. That's the opposite of how you save money.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 11:28 AM) You're getting 5 years control over Gillaspie. You're also giving more PA to Viciedo & DeAza, getting them regular positions which they need. You're also looking at a bench that can actually rest some guys because there's only 1 DH on the team instead of 2. Divide that $$$ up among all those things and it's a pittance. Yeah, I'm done arguing this. You are trying to make me into some anti-Conor Gillaspie person when I've indicated that isn't the case. You just dislike Adam Dunn so much that you want to eat his salary when that is absolutely ridiculous. Brent Morel had a similar rookie season to Gillaspie, and Josh Fields had a better one. Those guys were long gone. He's a nice bench player. I'm sure Steven Tolleson would be too. Bench guys aren't hard to find. Saving $5 million is something that is hard to come by.

So in essence, you would be paying a bench guy $5 million for 200 plate appearances. People are complaining about Alejandro De Aza costing too much as a bench player and he's making $4.25 mill, and he's a far better and more valuable piece than Gillaspie. Yes, I'm keeping Dunn over Gillaspie.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 10:57 AM) Davidson may be a great player, but here are 3 former White Sox 3B who were at least at one time ranked higher than Davidson ever was: Josh Fields #45 Brent Morel #85 Mark Teahen #85 There are no guarantees. I absolutely agree, and I think that Davidson has the biggest bust potential out of anyone the Sox acquired this offseason. I also think, total value considered (offensively and defensively), he has the highest ceiling of any player the Sox acquired too.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 10:41 AM) How much do quality corner IF options and LH sticks get on the open market? They get paid nicely as bench guys. Gillaspie is an athletic player who can do a few things, and yes, that is valuable. A lot more valuable than Dunn. Don't count your Davidsons before they hatch. He's still a minor league player and for all we know your starting 3B of your 2015 Chicago White Sox may be one Connor Gillaspie, with Davidson in Charlotte floundering. You DFA Dunn & you gain a 4-5 year piece potentially in Gillaspie, along with a more verstatile bench and a useful player. This s*** is hilarious. I bet if Gillaspie were on another team & Hahn traded Dunn for him while eating a s***load of cash that this board would accept it. But because he's here he sucks. Why is that? Ryan Hannahan signed a 2 year, $4 million deal last year. He's a very comparable player. I'm also not counting my "Davidsons," but he has a very high ceiling, as in a middle of the order bat. Hahn himself just yesterday said they are going to see a lot of him this year. That means they are going to see a lot of him next year. That means they value him moreso than they do Gillaspie. I would love it if Hahn traded Dunn for a Gillaspie-ian player. I would love it it Hahn just got someone to eat $5 mill or so of Dunn's deal. But straight up eating $15 million is absolutely ridiculous when there's a move that costs less that can be made. Look, I like Gillaspie, I'd love him on the bench for the next 5 years, and I'm sure they'll figure out a way to keep him on the roster. But the move the organization will make if they can't find a taker for some of these contracts will be to DFA him, just the same as they'll DFA Jordan Danks if they can't find a taker for De Aza or Viciedo.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 10:33 AM) Gillaspie has the brightest Sox future of all of these guys, and the most ability in the field. He's also tied for being the cheapest and just about tied as far as servicetime/years under control. So you dump that guy to keep around a lesser player, just because you owe him money? Really? You guys just aren't understanding here. The money is already gone. No other team is obligated to pay it out. The Sox have no leverage in any trade negotiation. You can't *assume* you're going to be getting any of that back. This thread is hopeless. You can't polish a piece of s***. Gillaspie does not have a high ceiling and his future is either as a platoon partner on a bad team or a bench player on a good team. He's just a guy. I like Gillaspie, and he has value, but IN THE WORST POSSIBLE CASE SCENARIO UNDER WHICH NO OTHER SCENARIOS HAVE PLAYED OUT AND IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY THAT MATT DAVIDSON BE ON THE MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER, designating Gillaspie for assignment is the right call.

QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 08:22 PM) Since only a couple people here could even possibly get the reference I had to tip my hat and quote this. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 08:26 PM) Score one for the old folks. I got it too you old fogies.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 09:27 AM) He'll be on the hook for 2/22 after this season. I don't know, I feel like the Sox mo would be to try to get another Paulino type or give a guy like Beck a shot before bringing in the underwhelming Jackson. Right, that's why you get the Cubs to eat some of the contract. If he's mediocre to bad, they're going to be actively seeking to get rid of him, like the Sox are with Keppinger and Dunn. Take him on for $5 mill a year and you could have a steal on your hands.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 09:16 AM) Luol said as much. There is no accountability. It must really suck for Luol right now. The Bulls werent going to win a championship anytime soon, but even when Tankfest '14 was going on, it was probably more enjoyable than cleveland Pretty sure a root canal is more enjoyable than Cleveland.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 09:15 AM) Oh my god. Then all of a sudden Sale and Paulino hit the DL in May and this conversation will come back heavy, lol. If Sale hits the DL, then hindsight says the Sox were right because you don't want to be spending money like that when the most valuable piece of the team is injured.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 09:14 AM) I agree. And for all the terribleness attached to his name, with the mention of the Cubs, and the Daniel Hudson love, sometimes it's lost that EJax was pretty good with the White Sox. 30 starts, 3.66 ERA, 196.2 IP, 174 K, 57 BB Honestly, if he has a mediocre season this year but is still showing good stuff, and the Sox could use a starter, that's a guy I could see the Sox possibly acquiring. Try and get the Cubs to eat $10-12 million of the deal.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 08:58 AM) While I agree, eating money isn't always the right thing to do, Teahen is a bad example. He didn't net the White Sox those players. Edwin Jackson did. If anything, including him and his entire contract, cost the White Sox players. Yeah, that's true, but Williams was able to save money getting rid of him. Same thing with Linebrink. Teams will almost always have uses and willingness for capable players, but it will be a certain price.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 08:46 AM) But it's part of the fun of being a baseball fan, I suppose. Nobody in a million years would have named Jose Abreu as our Opening Day 2014 starting 1B at those contract dollars a year ago, either. You're right, it is fun to speculate, but the only thing I want to speculate the Red Sox organization getting is syphilis.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 08:40 AM) One would think the Red Sox will definitely be in play for Rasmus unless Jackie Bradley, Jr., becomes a star this year. Victorino was very very solid last year, but can you expect that again at his age? Nava and Gomes are more like complementary pieces, and then there's Sizemore. Unless something really crazy happens and they move Bogaerts to LF, they'll still probably be short at least one legit outfielder going into 2015. It's way too early to speculate on anything like that.

The Cavs lost to a Lakers team that was down to 4 eligible players.

QUOTE (Bigsoxhurt35 @ Feb 6, 2014 -> 12:35 AM) We're going pitching at #3 so I hope we land a great starting pitcher to go with Sale and Quintana. I don't think the front office knows what they hell they're doing at #3 so it's pretty short-sighted to say they're definitely going pitching on February 6th.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 11:20 PM) This, caulfield, is exactly what I think is wrong with all these threads, which Mary & Dick Allen seem to understand but the rest of you guys don't. Market conditions have changed considerably. Santana wasn't an $18-20+M pitcher over 5-7 years, obviously. NOBODY in their right mind thought that. But he's now fallen into "bargain" territory IMO or at least "reasonable price" territory and yet some posters here just want to make it out like he's terrible, has never been good, isn't worth more than a few million or so, etc. And that is just ridiculous. It's not based in any sort of statistical reality, it's just dumb hate for the sake of it. And the absurd overvaluing of the draft pick - ASSUMING both that the pick will become a valuable asset AND that Santana couldn't bring back an equal or greater return - is just icing on the "cake" and by "cake" I'm not talking about the stuff you want to eat either. If the Sox signed Santana tomorrow for 3/$39 this board's opinion would change overnight. Will the Sox make an effort? Probably not, because they still have a lot of other positional issues to address, but the idea that they'd be stupid to hand out a reasonable deal to a quality SP isn't an idea that any intelligent baseball fan should hold. I've posted links to Santana's B-R page, even you caulfield whom I respect tried to say his stuff had considerably diminished when apparently fangraphs hasn't recorded anything of the sort, and yet all I see is a bunch of people ripping the guy's ability. Then the threads get closed because nobody seems to want to talk any sense, just hate hate hate and bulls***. I was just as sick of Gavin Floyd's mental lapses as anyone. Javy Vazquez gave me fits. Ervin Santana definitely has a little of that Floyd/Javy shakiness no doubt and as a result isn't a top-end pitcher nor should he be paid like one. But all three of the pitchers I have mentioned are/were quality pitchers with above average stuff who just happened to fade here and there, and although sometimes maddening, players like that *do* have value and *are* in demand especially around the trade deadline. IMO anyone who thinks signing that Santana to a reasonable deal would be a *bad* move is being absurd. There is certainly an amount of risk there, as there is in every free agent deal, but it's at least a deal that offers some upside to the team. And it's not like a 3-year deal for the guy is a franchise-crippling event should it go bad. So if you're a basketball player and football cleats go on sale for $100 (normal price $159.99!), are you going to buy them with the intention of using them on the basketball court? This isn't exactly true, as the Sox can always use pitching, but just because something is "on sale" does not mean it is appropriate to buy it. Trust me, we understand that they are cheaper, but the Sox signing them does not make sense. They've suggested as much and they are appropriately staying away from these conversations. I can't wait until those two sign with teams just so these threads die.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 06:35 PM) I think it's more like it's ok if the Sox don't spend money they know what they are doing. My question is what makes everyone so confident in this team's leadership. Because they've had a great offseason and it appears as though the team actually has a plan that extends beyond the next calendar year.