witesoxfan

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 11:31 PM) LOL You'd DFA Gillaspie over Dunn, Keppinger, Jordan Danks, a catcher, etc. etc. etc.? You're on a roll, too. Going....? Yes, in the absolute worst case scenario, that's exactly what I'd do, because Gillaspie costs nothing. In all likelihood, you'd be able to get a live arm for him. Do you understand what worst case scenario means, or are you going to go around trumpeting the idea that I would DFA Gillaspie if it saved me 50¢ on a hamburger at McDonalds? Because that would be wrong. I'd obviously never do it for less than $1.50. You seem like the type that would get eat money just because the player sucks without trying to save any or get something in return. You'd have probably eaten the contract for Mark Teahen and, just like that, the White Sox don't have Webb or Jaye. That does not appease ownership and it does not appease basic economic theory.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:19 PM) I would be curious just to find out the value of the rings on his hand. I mean even bench warmers championship rings go for big bucks, imagine what Jordan's would go for. Millions, because he's Michael Jordan.

QUOTE (Harry Chappas @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 04:16 PM) JR lining his pockets once again with the state run facility that he pays nothing for And he's never going to spend this on the team ever.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 03:50 PM) I still think you're asking for a lot of trouble if you're not going to give Davidson a legit shot in the spring, because that's exactly the kind of setup where he would hit so well that he'd earn a starting big league role and then get sent down for 2 guys who struggled and were thus untradeable Worst comes to worst, Gillaspie can be DFA'd.

Zimmerman needs to go the f*** away. I agreed with the outcome of the trial, even as unfortunate as the circumstances were, but he's still a piece of s*** human being that needs to be removed from the limelight.

f***ing sellouts

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 03:18 PM) True, but maybe not by June or so. I'll be ticked if we don't have a different catcher by the trade deadline. May as well see what the guys can do. You may end up pleasantly surprised. Or get what you expected and be ticked.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 03:16 PM) Quite different from earlier in the day when you had no faith in him but do in a guy who hasn't pitched in 2 years. If you have no faith in someone (which to me means you don't think he's very good) and admittedly don't know what he is, why are you arguing? I'm sure most can. Please be aware that I've never suggested Surkamp or Rienzo are going to be good, merely that they are talented or semi talented 6th starters for the Sox, and the only guy I have any sort of faith in among that final 3 is Paulino. Because I really like Paulino and think he's a good pitcher. I don't have faith in Surkamp or Rienzo, but we simply don't know enough about them. My primary concern regarding Paulino is health. I could certainly end up with egg on my face.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 03:09 PM) And Rienzo was older at the more advanced levels than a typical prospect. So you are now saying Rienzo is good correct? Earlier in the thread you wouldn't commit to that. Obviously, things have changed. He was good in AAA. Among young pitchers at AAA or above, I would say he is the 2nd most likely to carve out a career as a starting pitcher, next to Erik Johnson. I think his stuff will translate better than Surkamp's to the MLB level. That said, I still prefer to start the season with Paulino in the rotation. I don't have a stance on Rienzo. I am not saying he is good or he is not good because I don't know what he is, and you don't either.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 03:02 PM) Just look at Charlotte's staff. Jason Berken had a lower ERA. Charlie Leesman had a lower ERA. Check out Dylan Axelrod's minor league career. It is quite impressive. And yet, none of their peripherals are close to Rienzo's. Looking at just minor league ERA is like looking at just batting average.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:51 PM) Well it works a lot when you are talking about a *pitcher* and something that is actually *in demand* and actually *wanted* by other teams in baseball. And a lefty masher is something teams don't want? I guess that's why Jason Giambi keeps getting work then, huh? And why Jim Thome stuck around until he was 41? And they're not even as good as Adam Dunn.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:48 PM) 25 year olds in AAA getting guys out is nothing to hang your hat on. Rienzo isn't special. You said so yourself a few pages back. I've said he probably doesn't turn into anything, and I agree, he isn't special. Neither is Jose Quintana nor is Bronson Arroyo nor is Ubaldo Jimenez nor is Ervin Santana. He also got a late start to his career and, come the age of 21, progressed pretty normally. It doesn't mean he can't be an effective pitcher. I've also never disagreed that, long-term, he's probably a spot starter or reliever. Again, I can find examples of guys who broke that and guys who did the opposite. Without giving him a shot, it's simply something that we won't find out.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:42 PM) Now you'd be lucky to shed the deal IMO. 3 months down the road, if he's performing very well and appears to have put the injury behind him? You shed the entire deal then and you pick up a couple nice prospects. Weird, where have I heard that before?

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:38 PM) We have a lot of money coming off the books here pretty soon, and if you trade one of Danks/Santana later (if they're pretty good) you're not eating any salary there. I really don't see where the Sox are going to be going after first tier pitchers. I know they went after Tanaka but he was the exception IMO not the rule. That next tier down is where the Sox typically operate and they have a nice habit of getting more out of those arms than other teams can. It's funny how so often you hear about buy low and sell high but yet nobody wants to buy low on Santana right now? Why not? Draft pick cost? Ha. How much could you get in a trade for John Danks right now?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:32 PM) $44 million over 4 years for a 29 year old catcher is fairly adament, when we are advocating 3 years $39 million for a 30 year old pitcher. $40. And the key word is WILLING, dude. Do you understand what that means? I'd have preferred him at $7 million. You harp on the same points over and over even as people prove you wrong. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:36 PM) You really shouldn't cherry pick minor league stats to determine major league success. Do you know Lance Broadway had a 2.75 ERA in AA as a 22 year old.?Did you happen to see Nestor Molina's stats when he was acquired? What matters is how it translates to MLB. Rienzo doesn't have great stuff or great command. He will soon be 26 so you would think the learning curve is flattening out. He may have a decent career as a relief pitcher. And his ERA at AAA was 5.69 and was 4.65 with the White Sox with a K rate near 6. Rienzo's CAREER ERA in the minors is 3.46 with a K/9 of 9.6. You cherry pick all you want, but signs point towards Rienzo actually having a lick of stuff.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:29 PM) Paulino is still the 5th starter right? No. Johnson would be. Paulino would be relegated to the bullpen where his career ERA is over 9.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:20 PM) LOL! So were you wrong or right? I don't know? We'll have to see what Saltalamacchia does. Not everything has to be a stance. I was quite indifferent on Saltalamacchia. I said many times "if they sign him, great, if they don't, great." Just because I was or was not at one time willing to spend doesn't make it the right move, nor does it make it the wrong move. I was not nearly as adament about adding Saltalamacchia as the contingent here is about adding a mid rotation starter, and at least Saltalamacchia would have been a significant upgrade on the Sox current catching situation. You simply can't say that about Jimenez or Santana.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:13 PM) Says the guy who wanted to spend $44 million for 4 years for a 29 year old catcher who has had one good year. First, it was $40, and I said I'd be willing to spend that. Secondly, I actually backed off that quite a bit once free agency heated up. Third, that's actually a huge position of need, where a .700 OPS and good defense would have been a monstrosity of an upgrade.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:08 PM) Why would it make sense next year but not this? Because you will have a better idea of what the team will look like and what to expect moving forward. Why would you spend money on a starting pitcher this year if you end up having 6 good to great pitchers on the staff but the offense blows? That's a very real possibility. Then you are suddenly stuck with an extremely large commitment with the possibility of having no way to move it. You also don't have the room in the rotation to give these young pitchers experience to determine how good or bad they are. How many successful rebuilding teams have you seen that sign a middle of the rotation starter for 3 years and not regret it?

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:04 PM) Because Sox fans believe Sox management when they say they have no money. Yes, and that's why we're totally oblivious to the roughly 6 year, $120 million offer they made to Tanaka. You are the one who wants to spend frivolous money on players like Santana, Jimenez, and Hamilton.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 02:02 PM) i don't think they will go with just 11 pitchers the entire year. So they'd just kick someone out of the rotation and say HERE YOU GO, TAKE A SHOT AT STARTING! SUCK IT JOHN! This move might, on some level, make sense next year. It does not make sense this year.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:59 PM) You told me if guys aren't called up within 4 years of being drafted, they are release candidates. Show me where I said that. I've said guys can make it to the majors in 4 years and you have a pretty good idea of what you have and whether or not they will make the majors. That does not make them release candidates.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:52 PM) How is adding a SP writing anyone off. If Reinzo and whoever else can pitch the Sox will figure it out. Pray tell, how will they figure it out?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:48 PM) Are you coming off your stance that teams know what players are after 4 seasons? When I wrote Laumann said 2014 was a bad draft and HS heavy, therefore a HS kid taken with the 2nd round pick probably wouldn't be contributing to winning until 2020, you said BS. In 4 years teams know what they have. Therefore, we know what Rienzo and Surkamp are, and it isn't anything reliable. 4 years of major league playing time? You bet your ass you have a good idea. Guys can still figure it out. 4 years of minor league time? You have a fair idea whether a guy is talented or not and is deserving of a chance. In 7 minor league seasons, Andre Rienzo has a 3.46 ERA, a BB/9 of 3.6 and a K/9 of 9.7. That's good. In 5 minor league seasons, Eric Surkamp has a 2.84 ERA, a BB/9 of 2.5, and a K/9 of 10. That's good. Why do you consistently say these guys do not have good minor league numbers? You must also then believe that Jose Quintana has bad major league numbers.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 5, 2014 -> 01:45 PM) Rienzo to me is a reliever at best, but certainly not a guy that holds a permanent rotation spot. Surkamp admittedly hasn't been with the White Sox, but was tatooed when the Giants gave him a chance, and every team in the NL and the Astros could have had him for nothing but passed. Many teams have been wrong before, but that doesn't inspire me any confidence to say he has a really decent chance of being a good starting pitcher. He appears to be a classic AAAA guy. The Oakland A's starting 1B was a minor league free agent signing in the 2011-12 offseason and he spent the first part of the season of 2012 in the minors. Their starting catcher down the stretch last year was a waiver claim from Tampa Bay. Good players slip through waivers all the time for one reason or another.