caulfield12

It would be ONE thing if we were replacing our 5/6/7 guys out of the pen constantly. Our problem for most of the first half was the primary set-up guys, specifically, Cotts and Politte. It then morphed into problems where we used our 4/5/6 guys in any game that we were ahead significantly or down just a run or two. You're not only asking a Gio or Russell to become 7th and 8th inning guys, you're doing it when the season is still relatively young and the pressure's high (well not quite as bad with the Cubs' soap opera in town). To recap, we don't need a mop-up righthander, or a long man to get his feet wet like McCarthy (although Ozzie did try him in the 7th and 8th too when he began to feel he had no other options, which seemed to really put Brandon out of his comfort zone and started his "downfall" last season in the 2nd half). Ozzie has remarked he's not confident in Masset in that role ("too inexperienced"), so why would we possibly use Russell or Broadway or whoever? Gio is our best "strikeout" arm down in the minors (along with Day, who obviously is lost at this level), and yet we don't need another LHP. Which leads to Prinz, Bukvich, Oneli Perez, Vazquez, etc. Then maybe you try Floyd, since he at least has experience relieving. Heck, Sierra throws hard too, even though he has no control and can't get anyone out. Maybe they'll try to catch lightning in a bottle with him, like they did w/ Jenks? I know, I know, Jenks was a legit prospect...but this is one huge mess without a solution in terms of talent surrendered or money. The best option might be to trade two struggling relievers with comparable guaranteed contracts...there's always the Jose Mesas, LaTroy Hawkins and Felix Rodriguezes of the world, but betting on that, we might as well bring back Jose Paniagua. Finally, our starting rotation is still VERY good, and that causes the guys like Masset (and Jenks), that are at the end and front of the bullpen, to stultify from lack of work, which is the last thing you'd want to do to Gio or Russell or De Los Santos. Of course, there's always the MacDougal-Rowand trade, which I almost wish would happen just to quiet all those who feel like Rowand is some mixture of Jack Sparrow, Spiderman and Maximus from Gladiator and will save our team, no matter what.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 11:26 PM) I'm all for change, but the Sox wouldn't have been any worse had they kept all the players from the world championship team instead of the tinkering they've done. The players we've acquired with the exception of Jim Thome haven't done squat. And as much as I like Thome, don't you all agree he's no longer capable of carrying a lineup? He's getting older and definitely hasn't hit many homes in bunches this season. I'm surprised anybody would want Oz and/or KW fired however. Again ... they led us to a World Series title. This franchise and this city hasn't done squat with the exception of the Oz-KW led title season. But nobody we've traded has done anything either, and therein lies the dilemma. Did you really advocate at the time for keeping Frank Thomas and Carl Everett? Seriously? Essentially, McCarthy and Young are the only talented players we've lost that we would still want to have in 2-3 years. We've gained Danks, Masset, Gio, Vazquez and Thome. Vazquez > Garcia Danks > McCarthy Gio + Masset = Chris Young (I'm sure this could be debated, but most scouts would take young pitching) Thome > Rowand QUOTE(zimne piwo @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 11:36 PM) Couldn't have said it better myself. For better or worse, one of the by-products of winning the World Series in '05 is that we've raised the bar substantially higher, and with that the overall tolerance level of the fan base is going to be much lower than it has been in years. Right, otherwise this would look exactly like every White Sox season the past 20+ years, with the exception of 1983, 1990, 1993/94, 2000 and 2005/06. Of the past twenty five years or so, we've had 7 very good to great seasons, or 28%. If you eliminate the late 80's and late 90's duds, most of those non-contending teams have all fallen into that 75-85 win range.

I have to mention how dominant Contreras was during the final two months of the season...how he turned everything around, after being fairly average, slow working/methodical and uncertain whether to pitch with FB or forkball first. He became the dominant pitcher in the AL, and the only indications of that were his first 1/2 year in NY. McCarthy might not have been the difference in us making the playoffs or not, but those starts against the Red Sox, Rangers and Twins (even though he lost to Santana) also helped to stem the tide. Our offense that last six week stretch was very comparable to this year's version...Everett and Rowand, in particular, were lousy.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 08:58 PM) It was a fluke in terms of how everything came together with guys having career years and other teams, besides the Indians, having a lot of issues in the AL. However, for about 80 pct of the season, the Sox were clearly the best team on the field. If you want to point to a team that fluked it's way to the WS, the Cards last year is the best example. Then you add in the Graffanino error, AJ's strikeout versus Escobar (and the time he was tagged without the ball by Escobar), Pods' homer off Lidge, Blum's homer...seemingly every possible break went our way. Of course, we had to take advantage of the opportunities we were given, but we did that too. Good teams have a way of creating their own "breaks," the tried and true sports cliche.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 07:40 PM) All you ever do is talk about "smallball," "2005" and Rowand. Two things: Thome for Rowand is an absolute steal, Gio included. Rowand isn't very good. I know he's lighting it up, but he's not very good, overall. PS: the Sox needed to acquire offense for 2006. You know why? Because Kenny knew that the pitching staff wouldn't be good enough again to do what it did in 05 and you can't be competitive once they regressed because they were the ninth best offense in the AL, I believe. So let's not pretend that acquiring Thome for "proven fan-favorite cheerleader" Aaron Rowand was a bad deal. ESPECIALLY since the Phillies are paying for some ofi t. Hermanson was flukey. Garland's first half was flukey and overall ERA was flukey. Cotts and Politte were flukey. Everett was sort of flukey. Listen, there's nothing wrong with being flukey. That's baseball sometimes. But also: the 2005 team was excellent. Very good team, and everything clicked. That doesn't mean it wasn't kind of flukey. Every team has to have flukes here and there to succeed. I think you would have to say that last year's Cardinals (at 83-78) were much more flukey than the White Sox, and the 1997 and 2003 Marlins for that matter. KW, as mentioned, hasn't presided over a losing season from 2001-2006. That's a pretty impressive record for a GM who worked with "mid-tier" payrolls for most of that tenure. He won the World Series in 2005 with a $75 million payroll. Once again, not flukey. It would have been flukey had last year's team ended up like the 2003 Anaheim Angels, but I don't think they were flukey...or were the Red Sox flukey when we wiped them out in the 2005 playoffs because they didn't repeat? Oh, gee, it's actually difficult to repeat? You don't say! I do fault Guillen for being a different style of manager since the Mariotti debacle...he's lost some of his spunk and fire, and he has to say ever more outrageous things to get everyone's attention. That can eventually lead to getting tuned out, and it's happened to almost every big league manager recently (when they overstay their welcome), with two notable exceptions, Torre and Bobby Cox. Gardenhire might belong in that group, I'm not willing to put him there quite yet. The Twins were also very fortunate...1) not to have enough money to sign Prior if they wanted to, 2) that Mauer was a hometown boy, if anything, that was very "flukey" how that whole situation turned out. They would be lucky to be .500 without Mauer and a broken down Liriano and Prior. 2000 Yankees $108 million 2001 D-Backs $85 million, which led to their near-bankruptcy 2002 Angels $63 million 2003 Marlins $63 million 2004 Red Sox $125 million 2005 White Sox $75 million 2006 Cardinals $89 million If you adjust the Marlins and D-Backs payrolls for inflation, they're very close to the 05 White Sox. The Yankees, D-Backs, Red Sox and Cardinals weren't even close. That's impressive. QUOTE(RME JICO @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 08:30 PM) 2005 was not a fluke. The Sox won because the other teams were not as competitive as they are now. Detroit was putting their pieces together, Cleveland was still young, and the Twins weren't the piranhas yet. Also, the Sox bullpen was lights out. That is the one thing that is missing this year, even with this anemic offense. Each of those Twins' teams from 02-04 grew progressive weaker, "bottomed out" at 83-79 in 2005 and then obviously they were fully "reloaded" for 2006. If only we could be so lucky to go through one 83-79 season before winning 96 games the next season. That would be almost as rewarding as winning the World Series.

The only thing making this somewhat tolerable is the Cubs' implosion, but that's actually shielding KW from scrutiny from the media for the time being, when the Cubs and Yankees are being dissected every day by the national media.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:45 PM) ... Not to mention Politte and Cotts last year and Marte in 2005. Because the options Ozzie was provided were a washed-up Riske, a near the end Nelson, Montero, Politte and Tracey. You can't make filet mignon out of mince-meat.

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:44 PM) So out of curiosity, how many blown games for our bullpen this year so far? I think that's 10 or 11

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:41 PM) Send f***ing Aardsma and MacDougal down to AAA, they both suck. Macdougal actually can't be sent down, so f***ing release his ass, i dont care what he has done in the past or that he is signed till 09, he needs to go. Prinz and Vasquez should be called up. Because Prinz and Vazquez are going to be a part of our future? Do we really need three lefties? Seriously? Last appearance for Aardsma until September? Well, there's always Riske, Politte, Montero, Tracey and Jeff Nelson.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:37 PM) But Calderon has more life than the middle of the order. I was really hoping I would not need to explain. What next, Joe DeSa references? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't take every single outfielder on the MLB roster, AAA and AA in trade for Alex Rios.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:33 PM) Perhaps a better question than "Why did Ozzie bring in McDougal" is "Why is McDougal still on the roster?" Because Day doesn't belong on a major league roster, and Masset's best role might be as a starter. Which means you want to bring up Oneli Perez or Ryan Bukvich and eat MacDougal's contract? You don't just give up on guys with that type of stuff without trying to figure out what's wrong first.

Would anyone in here have used Day or Aardsma after the last week? I don't think so.

Crede, Uribe and Hall for our big comeback in the 9th. Although I doubt we'll make it through the next half inning without giving up 1-3 more runs.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:26 PM) Ozzie will send him to the allstar team. He thinks that is good. It would be nice to bring in a reliever with a 1.01 ERA...

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 02:25 PM) WTF is Ozzie trying to prove by bringing in McLooser. The guy has nothing to offer. It is lucky that he did not give up six more runs. This is exactly why many think Ozzie should be fired. Like a Pavlovian Dog, he brings in McDOugal even though McDougal CAN NOT GET AN OUT. Why has everybody figured this out but Ozzie. And a good start by Jose get flushed down the toilet because Ozzie wants to bring in a semi-retarded pitcher. Why Ozzie why? If neither Aardsma NOR MacDougal can pitch this season without allowing inherited runs to score at a 75% clip, then we're history anyway. And that runner left on 3B really haunts us now.

Is anyone surprised in the least? We officially have the worst bullpen in the major leagues, with the exception of a top quartile closer.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 01:47 PM) Thank goodness, gotta get some breaks to win games. I'll take it. That inning was over before Cool Papa Bell could turn off the lights and get in bed.

Well, at least Owens didn't strike out.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 01:01 PM) Getting a man home from 2nd with 0 outs twice in 3 innings without an additional hit? Who are these guys and what did they do with the Sox? This is very nice to see. This might be the best, most consistent execution over two games (so far) in the entire season. Get the bullpen ready today, 49 pitches through 2 innings for Jose.

QUOTE(Straycats @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 09:54 AM) I would trade Dye and Crede to the Giants for Cain, Lowry and Fred Lewis Where does anyone get the eye they would trade either Cain or Lincecum for ANYONE?

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 12:51 AM) I had the Knights game on the feed online for a few inning earlier, and the ball was FLYING out of that ballpark at an incredible factor, so Broadway's outing is quite impresive in that context (Wilson's homer was a pop up basically). And Cunningham needs to get his average back up to .300 now that he seems to be coming out of his slump. Prinz and Bukvich have better raw stuff than I thought. Well, Prinz was a closer for the D-Backs at one point (he also pitched for the Yankees I think) and Bukvich was once groomed to be the Royals' closer (before MacDougal) when the started to have so many injury problems.

QUOTE(Brian @ May 30, 2007 -> 09:20 PM) Agreed. None of our business and I find it disturbing that some paper probably followed him around just waiting to get a picture. Not only that, they "caught" them together at four different cities, cataloged all the strip bars in NYC and Vegas that A-Rod frequents (those they know about, as he apparently uses the private/VIP suites as often as possible and for obvious reasons)...to top it off, they identified the woman as being from Iowa (Cedar Rapids) and tracked down former high school classmates, tried to ambush her parents and talked to her neighbors. Apparently, the escort/dancer had posed in Playboy for one picture, so now she's a Playboy Bunny, lol.

QUOTE(danman31 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 03:16 AM) If we were to make a list that completely included prospects based on this season's results a few guys would shoot up or down. We only moved guys up or down a spot or two in the case of close calls because we released them at such different times. I would imagine De Los Santos and Russell are the ones that have experienced the most movement. Egbert is coming out of nowhere to many Sox fans as well. Last night, I don't think Slowey threw one pitch over 90 for the Twins, but he only gave up one run, and of course Bert Blyleven was already comparing him to Radke with his command and changes of speed. If we can ever get anything out of Kris Honel at the major league level, that would be a very pleasant surprise. Of course, for every positive story, there are two negative ones...Francisco Hernandez, Liotta, Valido, Stumm, Malone, etc.

QUOTE(gosox41 @ Jun 1, 2007 -> 11:12 PM) In light of the recent events, I just wanted to know how everyone felt about signing this guy. I don't want to get into how much he'll make and for how long. Assume it's affordable to the Sox and fits in their payroll. I know there is a lot of love around here for this guy, but he hasn't been impressive this year. Is it due to the pressure of being an FA? Is he hurt? Is he certifiable? Personally, I wouldn't sign him because there's something not right about him. How would signing him affect the clubhouse. Isn't 'Big Z' the guy who shows up fielders after he makes an error? We all know he's emotional, but there's a point where it affects performance. As much of a horse as he's been, the flip side is he's thrown a ton of innings and pitches the last 5+ years and isn't getting any younger. He also has never won more then 16 games in a season which makes me wonder why he's an ace. Bob Not only would it be unwise to sign Zambrano as a "rehab project," it would still be prohibitively expensive. The irony of this whole situation is those 7-8 punches Big Z landed on Barrett meant that Mark Buehrle's value in this post-season FA market went up another $5-10 million as Zambrano is going to start scaring off all but the most determined of suitors.

QUOTE(greg775 @ Jun 2, 2007 -> 12:32 AM) We could argue this forever about whether it was wise to rid ourselves of Rowand, but how can you say he's not a good player???? Because for at least half of his career, Rowand has been closer to a fourth outfielder than a legit, 800+ OPS starter.