ILMOU

Never Forget.... how easily offended some are over a one-day bar promotion. Too soon????

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 05:37 PM) You know, that's not how I'd describe it at all. I'd describe it as a moderate risk. If he returned to his former self...he becomes a "moderately" underpaid pitcher. Trading away a guy on a minimum salary with the potential to become a #2 starter is a high risk. Trading away a guy making $15 mil a year for the next 3 years who has the potential to become a #2 starter is at best a moderate risk. Even if he returns to being a #2 starter...you've still cleared $15 million a year for 3 years. If, in fact, you could clear all of that amount with his future performance being more of an unknown.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 07:02 AM) Yeah, we've known for a while about the Sox doing this - taking a guy who is very probably a reliever, and making him start for a year or two. Chris' indication is that this is done to move them from being throwers to pitchers. What's different about Chris though, compared to say Jones, is that Chris has 4 pitches, or even 5 if you count both fastballs. Also, unlike Jones, he did pretty darn well starting. His arm held up well to doubling his innings too. This makes for a tough decision for the Sox, though I'd bet they have him start in 2014, and then not make him a reliever until either he struggles or he's in Chicago. Yeah, I'd remembered reading a year or so ago that he preferred relieving, but figured his success starting would have changed his tune. Hopefully, he's seeing what all the 4th-5th starters are signing for in the FA market this offseason. He could be potentially battling Rienzo for a 5th starter role on the Sox by July if we were to trade Danks or Hector at that time, for instance, and he starts AAA strongly.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 6, 2013 -> 02:33 PM) I don't see much of a return for Danks right now. If he pitches well in the first half of 14 then we might get a decent return , however, if he pitches well in a full 14 season he would bring some prospects worth getting excited over. Timeing is just plain bad right now. He would be nothing more than a salary dump at this point and that would only make sense if the Sox were trying to sign a FA or two in an effort to make the team better in 14. I agree with the line of thinking that says it's better to wait on trading Danks. He can potentially regain a LOT of value with 10-12 good starts to begin next season.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 06:46 PM) Doesn't sound too good for anyone interested in Tanaka: Sounds like they were counting on 50, and P.O.'d that it could be only 20. This seems like a negotiation tactic.

A $20M limit is a game changer, if it comes to pass, and maybe only gives the West Coast teams a real advantage, if the player gets the choice of equal bid teams. Something will have to be done for the Japanese league in return for the posting limit - not sure what that would be. Ownership opportunities in a Far East Division of mlb, with teams in Tokyo, Osaka, Seoul, Pusan and Taipei is at least 20 years (and the return of the Concorde) away. Just dreamin' here.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 05:48 PM) Plus not to mention, looks at the amount of TJ surgeries that many "clean/ideal" delivery guys have had over the years. A guys mechanics is a crapshoot nowadays in all fairness. I think it comes down to whether or not the Sox would find somebody willing to overpay for Sale. No way am I pulling the trigger on prospects unless the other team is literally overpaying for Sale. No fair trade that helps both teams. They other team needs to make a dent in their future. I think this is one of the few areas where our org is smarter than the average bear. Sale's success and relative health may well have emboldened them to pick Danish, who also scared off many with his delivery. I like this ballsyness from my org, as long as they're basing these choices in logic, even if it's their own exclusive logic.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 05:21 PM) [/b]Yes, the Purple Row blog mentioned it a few days ago, after Dan O"Dowd ripped him in the press. Plus, when I opened this thread several weeks ago, it was in direct response to Fowler rumors. I'm in a cave here in Clear Creek Canyon, impenetrable to local airwaves, apparently. Wasn't aware that O'Dowd had said anything. I'm going to blame the "all Broncos all the time" nature of the local sports media for my glaring ignorance. BTW, is it Blackmon they're projecting as a starter now? EDIT: just checked and it seems Blackmon is the guy. nvm.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 05:14 PM) Possibly 5 if Danish developes as well. Now you talkin' to me baby, dat I like... I'm on the Hoffman train with Marty and others, if he looks like the best option come June. Building a vast stockpile of pitchers and trading for the bats we can't seem to develop ourselves may in fact be the plan that best takes advantage of what we seem to do well.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 03:53 PM) The organization is a mess, honestly. If an organization reviving monster offer for Sale came in...you look at his mechanics and just basically do it. He either is one of those genetic freaks that can survive any amount of years of weird torque on his body ------- or he's not. And we'll only know the answer to that once he's either injured or done with a 15 yr career etc. Hell, I can't fault the logic behind the bolded, but I don't think the mechanics should have anything to do with it. Now that he's had two full, studly seasons, some scouts are saying that his delivery is actually surprisingly "clean", despite the appearance. The CYA tendencies of these guys are funny, and not surprising. And if the fear of the mechanics diminishes the return in any way, fuhgeddiboutit. Oh, and if his arm falls off in year 13, I don't think that will have vindicated the doomsayers.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 04:48 PM) Trading Sale who can only contribute to this team in 33 of 162 games per year is " Nintendo talk"? In the right trade Sale's return could fill multiple holes with players that can potentially help this team up 162 games per year each. This team is in dire need of help at multiple positions so the right return makes more sense than keeping one pitcher that can only help his team in 33 games per year. Now if Sale can play 3B, CF, 2B, C and LF than fine but until then the Sox need help bad! Your infatuation with Sale is obvious but I am a Sox fan first and foremost over any particular player. I would rather trade Sale to help make this team better overall than keep Sale out of pure puppy love. Well, I told you I wasn't making any sense. But the "Nintendo" expression refers to the inherent craziness of 12 player/4 team trade proposals, and the like, and isn't really meant as an insult to anyone.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 02:01 PM) Yes, I affirm your para # 2. Both are excellent in field. Cargo one of the very best. Fowler would have been a huge upgrade for Sox. His lifetime stats are irrelevent, because he was brought up way too early and was just then learning to switch hit. Last year he had three injuries. The kid can play. Too late now. I would have preferred his upside to Bourjous (sp?) by a mile, and his defense is a lot better than folks are giving credit for. Still, Dahl and the other OF prospects aren't knocking down the door, so I'm guessing there has been some frustration with his failure to "turn the corner" as a consistent bat. Maybe, as you suggest, they should have been a bit more patient. I had no idea he would be available, did you?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 03:48 PM) I still disagree with this. The only thing Adam Dunn does valuable is up at the plate against right handed pitching. I don't even want to call it hitting anymore, because he hits some homers and draws some walks. He's an incredibly flawed player who has become more flawed as a member of the White Sox. Playing him in the outfield is similar to playing Paul Konerko in the outfield. Playing him at 1B is probably worse than that. He just does nothing well in the field any more. He can't run, he doesn't hit for a good average, and he strikes out a ton. He's, at best, a 1-2 WAR player being paid $15 million this year. The only thing not unreasonable about it is that it's only for 1 year, but, again, why wouldn't a team find it easier to go with a guy like Garrett Jones or Generic AAA Slugger over Adam Dunn right now? If they feel Adam Dunn can make that much of a difference, they'll trade for him come midseason and pay 1/2 to 1/3 of his salary. If JDA never hits, and Paulie Eeyore's his way to a Memorial Day retirement, I will at least acknowledge the benefit of these offseason moves if I never have to see the bolded ever again. I hope it was just a fluke that he hit better while playing the field - the compromise is virtually never worth it in his case.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 04:12 PM) I'm with ya Jose. The offer would have to be a damn good one but if the Sox can get an OF, 3B, front line starter and SS then do it. Bradley, Davidson, Pollack and Gregorius would get it done, IMO. If they insist no Bradley then Skaggs, Davidson, Gregorius plus a few other aspects is worth considering. Sale can only help this team roughly 33 games per year , but adding quality position playes in a trade such as this can help you much more often. The Sox could make a run at Tanaka with the few bucks saved in this trade scenario along with adding Bradley or Skaggs for the rotation in the near future. Hahn should at least keep his mind open. BMac was seen as untradable too and it wasn't long before Texas changed Kenny's mind. I hope this is all "Nintendo" talk. At the risk of not making any damn sense, I really don't want to trade Chris Sale, regardless of the return. His slider, imo, may be the most transcendent non-fastball pitch from a SP since the Koufax curve. For me, the slider makes him infinitely more fun to watch than Kershaw, Price or any other pitcher you can name. I enjoyed the hell out of him making Cargo and Tulo look like little-leaguers in the ASG. I fell in love early, and have looked forward to seeing him lead a playoff rotation for our guys. For this, I'm willing to wait a bit, if I feel we're at least heading in the right direction. I also believe that lacking a true Ace makes it very difficult to win the WS, and that our 2005 doesn't happen without Count's awesome run that ended in June of '06.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) The White Sox are not playing for 2014 the way the lineup sets up is the least of our worries. As far as Dunn goes, his value was seen this trade deadline and it isn't much. No doubt. But a 20M commitment is a lot different than a 5M commitment. The last 5 Mil of his deal is saveable, and still is if we're serious about a platoon, and this isn't pre-dump posturing.

QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 12:48 PM) He showed no signs of being ready at the plate. I really, really like him but his run in AAA was quite a big step down from what he was doing in AA already. I'd like to see him get his walk rate in AAA again before bringing him up to the MLB where he was a 1:30 BB:K ratio last year He had a bit of a strange year, with the complete flip-flop in his OBP skills as he adjusted to higher levels. Wouldn't mind him in Charlotte to get a better idea of who he really is, and I think this is a bit more likely with PK14 on the 25.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 12:37 PM) The guy had a bushy beard but I don't think we need to jump to conclusions here I'm not. More wondering about personality/clubhouse issues, than what you think I'm thinking. Could there be more to the WS benching other than mere slumping? Of course , they brought in AJ, so that would seem to negate it. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the diminutive 3/21 deal, obviously.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Oct 21, 2013 -> 01:12 PM) According to Fangraphs, his UZR through 5,000 innings so far is -40.6, that is in the range of horrific defender. And his pedestrian offense could actually be beneficiary of the Coors effect. The only reasonable OF candidate I would want from the NL West is Parra and Chris Denorfia. UZR doesn't seem to work very well for Coors Field at all. The vast spread of the outfielders may be the culprit here. For years, UZR had Matt Holliday a better fielder than Cargo, which is just silly. Oldsox will likely back up my own eye test that says both Dexter and Cargo are very good Ofers. Also, UZR generally sucks balls. It's inventor, John Dewan, readily acknowledges its faults and limitations. Until the exact positions and movements of fielders are determined with GPS technology - I propose sensors sewn into the belts of uniforms, if you can get it through the union - defensive metrics will be dicey. Better data will reflect much better judgments on which plays should or shouldn't be made. I'm a saber guy, but I also believe that the metrics so many hang their hat on, UZR and Fip particularly, will, before long, be viewed with the same contempt and disdain that many of us now view BA.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 12:02 PM) The logjam is Dunn/Konerko/Abreu. The Sox aren't going to trade Abreu. The aren't going to trade Konerko, they probably would try to trade Dunn, but where exactly was the leverage BEFORE Konerko came back? Please, bring back some logic. The hopeful scenario, since we're paying the fat guy anyway, is that in a contract year, Dunn becomes attractive enough to a contender, for the last two months salary of his deal, to land us a middling prospect and/or save us 4-6 million, or something lower if that sweetens the prospect at all. Not much at all, granted, but the Konerko deal could wind up costing ~7 million plus, if we feel compelled to purely dump Donkey this offseason to get Paulie his AB's. I suppose there's a chance Dunn looks more attractive to suitors in late July by only facing RHP. He has a chance to be that kind of extra PH bat that replaces a mediocre bullpen spot on a 25 man playoff roster. Ala Matt Stairs or the Gentleman Slugger. Not my money, and not that big a deal. Oh well.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 11:44 AM) Sammy Ayala turned 19 in July and was in rookie ball this year. 2017 would be early for him. Yes, exactly. And no one else currently in the system really has much mlb hope at all.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 11:45 AM) Apparently the Sox weren't the only team that thought that money for Salty wasn't such a good idea. The guy wound up in Miami. Keep that in mind. Miami. Loria. Oh, I know. I wasn't in love with the guy by any means, just saw him as a more-substantial-than-acknowledged-here upgrade, don't like the remaining options outside of Jaso, who may not be able to go, apparently, and really worried that a 500's OPS from the position, against the type of pitching we'll see 80% of the time in our division, will be a lineup killer that we can't afford. Again. Yes, the numbers aren't thrilling, but I have to wonder if there are some unreported fleas on Salty, given the marketplace.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 11:34 AM) True or false: A Konerko/Dunn platoon makes the team better. It will probably make the DH results marginally better, granted. But if either is playing 1B at all, their contributions will be outweighed by the defensive crapitude. It essentially likely means that Semien goes to AAA and LGarcia has to be the utility IF since he's the only capable backup SS (though not super impt. given Lexi's durability), or it kind of forces us to dump Keppinger with no leverage and no chance to regain any value. It may also compel a pure dump of Dunn, with no hope of even the slightest return, and it limits the transitioning of Dayan to DH that I'd like to see. Now, to be sure, none of these things is devastating individually or collectively, and a single trade could make all of it rather moot. But in the meantime the roster is more cumbersome, and I can't see this as a positive for the franchise in any way. The Bench, barring other trades, has to look like: Paulie LGarcia backup C 4th OF to cover all 3 spots

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 11:19 AM) If Konerko was willing to play elsewhere he'd be elsewhere now And he would have discovered so little interest elsewhere, that it might have made him feel guilty about imposing his wishes on the Sox, and he'd be retired now.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 10:17 AM) The Dodgers spent $42M and did the same thing. There is no reason to rush him out there as the team is not in place to contend anyway. But with this organizations record of breaking hitting prospects, I am sure you are right, regardless of what is best for the player and team long term he will be thrown to the wolves on opening day. Puig was 22 and considered raw in comparison to Abreu, who's 26.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 4, 2013 -> 09:18 AM) Abreu would have to be completely outmatched in ST for him to go down to Charlotte. If that happens, we're so f'd. Yeah, let's try not to think that way.