29andPoplar

Well I can guess it, it really doesn't need to be PM'd because if it's bantered about here as fact, the board should know about it anyways. Further I recall Guillen saying to the press when or shortly after Tracey was demoted, Tracey would be back if the team needed him. Later in the year, he was. I will admit straight out I have a very hard time taking much of anything you state about Guillen as gospel because I've seen, in my opinion, some irrational bashing bordering on a vendetta against Guillen from your posts. Nothing personal but I sense a real bias, where everything is Guillen's fault and I have watched enough baseball to know better.

I can not say I have either, but half the time I will confess I can't decipher what Guillen is saying (swearing?) anyways. I am still interested in the stories of the two players who used to post here?

Really, how do you know this, particularly the first part? If Guillen had an ungodly hatred for Sean Tracey I find it extremely hard to believe he would have pitched again for the White Sox, which he did.

I see Cora working with the middle IF guys on positioning, technique, etc. and I see Baines working with the OF guys on similar stuff. (should be clearer, have seen this in Tucson). So it looks like the "hole" as it were, was the baserunning technique and I will go out on a limb here and say they have someone in mind that they like. There is great validity to the issue of your question, why don't the Sox players know all this stuff by the time they hit the majors? Not that players don't need a refresher now and again, but your exact point is why they are looking at all aspects of player development this offseason.

You said there was a source of tension between the two, so I'm not following you at all.

Yes I agree, Ozzie swears too.

Actually I was referring to the two players you mentioned, what was the story there? For the record, I have heard him swear.

It is quite possible, even likely, a different skill set could be required based on the make up of the team. Or as you alluded to, quite possibly they have someone else in mind they feel is a better fit. That he was signed for only one year tells me not that they wanted to hold him back, but rather allow him to keep his options open. Also for the record I am not dismissing the possibility that something went wrong, possibly an interpersonal conflict or whatever. I am not in the clubhouse, I woudn't know. I do know the White Sox do not stand in the way of anyone wanting to better themselves. That's not their style.

I would like to hear more about this. Being around the spring complex as much as I have the last few years, I have seen and heard the exact opposite. But then again, I am not in the clubhouse. However I would really question ... really question ... if a White Sox organizational employee displayed a racist attitude, knowing how sr. management draws a line on that stuff, it would be a shock if said person was still employed, let alone promoted. But regardless of my feelings, I would like to hear more about those incidents.

The facts according to Phil Rogers. Hmmm, I wonder why Phil decided to trot this little tidbit out right now, instead of when the trade was made, or any time between then and now?

What stories are those?

Wait, so you are saying: Ozzie yelled at Tracey, Tracey got sent down, Razor pitched Tracey in the minors and got him back on track, and that equals, Ozzie and Razor had tension between them?

What were those? They signed Razor to a one year contract. In and of itself that should tell you something but I will spell it out. In addition to thinking they may have needed a slightly different skill set, (quite possibly from a guy who wasn't available last winter but will be this winter?) they know Razor wants to manage. They promoted this guy because he did a good job in the minors, his team was a winner. In addition a 3B coaching job gives a guy more visibility. Lest anyone think the White Sox org. doesn't like Razor Shines, they drafted his son this year as a sign of respect and offered the son a contract, which he turned down to go to college. Technically they are not offering him a new contract since he was only on a one year deal. Saying he was fired is a little strong but so be it. I think they are cutting him loose so he can pursue something he really wants to pursue, in addition to having their eye on someone they've wanted as a longer term fit.

Speaking just for myself, I honestly wish you'd stop with the half speak and innuendo. If there are "things" you've heard about Shines and his relationships with members of the organization, speak up about it. When you post shadowy innuendo type stuff, it leads other people on this site to reach conclusions that aren't necessarily accurate. I don't know what the big secret is anyways. For the record, what I have heard is nothing but respect for Razor from other coaches, specifically Juan Nieves (minor league pitching guy) and a couple others, and from young players who absolutely loved playing for him. However I will be the first to say I have no clue what type of job he did as a 3B coach other than I thought he was somewhat better than Cora in terms of sending/not sending runners. It's my opinion that Guillen was telling the truth, i.e. if he let one of his coaches go, it would not be because it's the coaches fault. It will be because they feel they need a different skill set at that coaching spot. Not unusual this would happen. As for Greg Walker, that topic has been debated endlessly here and the topic du jour is Shines and Art K. As for Art, he is into his 60's now and I believe the eye problems have contributed to him not wanting to face the grind of being around the ballpark, travel, and so on. Razor, frankly, has gone about as far as he could in the Sox organization anyways. They only signed him for one year, which leads me to believe he has other aspirations and the Sox don't make a habit of blocking guys who want bigger opportunities. Whether a legit opportunity will arise for Razor, who knows.

Some of these knee jerk reactions are comical, especially being afraid of looking at Rotoworld. First of all who here really knows if Razor was good at his job or not? That would be no one. Second, did anyone recall Guillen saying specifically that if any of his coaches were not to return in 2008, it wouldn't be the coaches fault, it would be because they want a different skill set. He said that, exactly. Third, Razor's objective is to manage. With Ozzie's extension, that won't happen here. Further, it might be a good idea to wait and see what skillset strength the new 3B coach has. The 3B coach does a lot more than wave runners around. Their job can include coaching infielders, coaching baserunners and basestealing, coaching OF, working with advance scouting information, looking into the opposing dugout for signs and interpreting them (this is not always the bench coach doing this, the 3B coach is closer and has a better angle). Just a guess on my part, but I think the replacement 3B coach will have a stronger knowledge of the American League, will have expertise in the baserunning aspect of things, and/or will possess a skill set not necessarily represented on the current staff. Guillen has control over coaches but people are sadly mistaken if they think Guillen can just go ahead and hire a buddy just because he's a Guillen crony.

It doesn't matter where these publications rank the farm systems. All those rankings do is give people something to talk about, be optimistic about, complain about, etc. Too many things can happen to these prospects on the way up the ladder, both good and bad. The poster above who said the Sox have a below average system but improving is correct in my opinion, plus it seems by his post he knows a bit about the system judging from his comments.

It's not surprising that you don't think they are making progress, I wonder why that is. Is it because you're conditioned to think negatively, quite possibly yes. You might want to stop listening to Baseball America and your brother who works there and dig a little deeper. Minor league depth lets you do a lot of things. It lets you trade prospects for major league players. I know that concept is a dirty word to many on this site but it can be an effective strategy. This is a system thats been in the dregs the last couple of years and is turning it around. They have a good group of true baseball players at the low levels and that's how you strengthen a farm system. You also bring in new player development people, put more money and effort into international operations, bring in different scouts and more scouts, among other things. Those are all the things that don't show up in Baseball America. Unfortunately they take a while to show up to the average fan who cares about results, and not progress. Small incremental progressive steps (progress) lead to results, I wish things moved faster but it is the reality of development and strengthening a farm system. Williams wanted to get rid of Shafer a few years ago but couldn't present a prevailing case to get the ok. Finally it got done. Note that Shafer wasn't snapped up as a director of scouting ... he got a job as a scout, that's it. That was progress in and of itself. There is so much more to making progress than you realize, things that Baseball America won't tell you.

Cutting ties with Terrero has nothing to do with retaining Erstad or not. They felt Terrero might blossom, possibly into a full time or semi-full time player at one of the OF positions. They found out he is what he is though. He did not progress at the plate, he still has the same problems he's always had which have kept him from consistent major league playing time. Things like poor plate discipline, shortening his swing, striking out too much.

No to #1 and I would have to say no to #2 as well. The Sox want to upgrade at SS but it doesn't sound like they feel they can get something done. I believe their fall back plan is some kind of platoon for the leadoff spot. Maybe Owens has a piece of it, Ozuna, some unknown player. Strange things are known to happen though. I see more of a shakeup than Williams is letting on, for now.

Yes, I just went and checked the stats myself after seeing that comment. I believe Richar will improve, he did some good things. He might know how to get on base, problem is he didn't do it enough. I don't see Owens or Richar as leadoff hitter in '08, call it a hunch but I think they'll go in another direction.

They are. This is not the Pirates or the Royals. Striving for and accomplishing are two different things though. Practically every team in baseball will tell you that.

Yes there will be other moves, some of which will hit the press like this one, others which will not (hiring of scouts and instructional people from other organizations). Rafael Santana running the second operation down there is a good move, at least on the surface. He is connected in the DR and it may help the White Sox. I need to find out exactly how the organizational structure works down there, but it all reports through to Wilder as the Trib article states. What I don't know is how Denny Gonzalez fits although I believe he runs the original Dominican team/academy. And I believe both are overseen by Ruben Amaro Sr. who in turn reports through to Wilder. Hopefully I can get the scoop for SoxTalk when and if these interviews come to fruition. Unfortunately I don't think they will occur until November because of organizational meetings. Hopefully no later than that but I am in no position to make promises, these men are very busy. Either way, additional attention and resources to the Dominican operation is a positive.

Totally agree that in scouting relief pitchers, throwing strikes is at or near the top of the list. Most of the guys they acquired had control problems. MacDougal, Masset, and Aardsma really struggled. On the other hand they had good luck with Thornton who was notoriously wild when acquired. Even though he had a down year he is still a valuable piece. When scouting these guys, they really need to find out how well they adapt to coaching, implementing changes, and what's their mindset. MacDougal can't seem to make the changes they want and further, it appears he's afraid to throw strikes, he is constantly wanting the hitter to get themselves out.

Was out for a bit, just asked a Miranda question about an hour into the chat. Not too many questions, hope he didn't shut things down. A Chris Carter question was asked, basically some guy asked if he was legit and did he have a long term shot to replace Thome or Konerko. The response was basically "yes", and a comment added that he who hits, plays in the major leagues. A John Shelby question was just answered: One of the lone bright spots in the Sox organization is John Shelby. He played a good season, yet missed the list. Comments? A: Bill Ballew: Shelby really turned the corner this year. He got tired at midseason before finishing fairly strong. Shelby has great hands and is able to use the entire field. While he does a good job of putting the ball in play, Shelby needs to focus on using the middle of the field in order to put his above-average speed to better use. Huh? So he uses the whole field ... but he needs to focus on using the middle of the field to put his speed to better use? Not sure I understand his point. Chat over, the Miranda question didn't get answered. He answered three Chris Carter questions basically the same way though, hello BA chat question moderator?

Williams had another interesting quote in the Southtown today. Speaking of Jose Contrereas: "He's a horse, and to a large degree, a lot of his problems were tipping (his pitches) and letting the hitters know what was coming," Williams said. "It took us a while to get that understood and corrected. It also took him a while to get back to an arm slot that is more conducive to getting outs and having better command. So, yeah, I believe Jose Contreras is going to have one heck of a year next year." OK. So he thinks Contreras will have a good year next year. Maybe that's blowing smoke, maybe it isn't. My question is this though, apparantly opposition hitters figured out Jose was tipping his pitches, but Jose and the Sox staff took "a while" to correct it? When he got here, he had trouble tipping pitches, now he has (had?) the problem again. I hope for their sake they finally have it resolved once and for all, and can prevent any reoccurance.