Kenny Hates Prospects

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 04:15 PM) Produced? You mean acquired from other organizations or signed like Alexei/Viciedo? Because you can't compare Mauer, Morneau, Michael Cuddyer, Torii Hunter, Jacque Jones (once a very good player), Garza, Denard Span, Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Wilson Ramos, etc., with what the White Sox have produced from their farm system. Not to mention Santana, the AJ trade, the Eric Milton trade, the Knoblauch trade....all replenishing the farm system with the likes of Bartlett, Punto, Liriano, Nathan, Bonser, etc. From Ordonez/C-Lee/Durham/Buehrle....then Crede/Rowand, it's a barren barren wasteland of destitution and deprivation. Impact talent? Under KW? Beckham? Ramirez? Sale? Santos? Because you can't really count Quentin/Danks/Floyd/Jenks in terms of "producing" them exactly. Not even Santos. And we didn't really develop either Gordon or Chris. They were both with the major league team within a season of being drafted. If you're counting Santana for the Twins, then you can also count Quentin, Floyd, Danks, etc. And yes, I am talking about impact talent, not #4 starters or solid starting players. Those are the guys that the Twins have produced where we haven't. I am talking about CLee, Maggs, Konerko (trade, I know), Cameron, Buehrle, Danks, etc. vs. Santana, Mauer, Morneau, Hunter, Radke etc. I am talking about young unproven players who were brought into the Major leagues and turned into solid players, because it doesn't matter how you acquire them. Every future Sox player we traded for would have been all over the radars of our scouts and executives since their high school days, so it's not like the Mets are going to draft someone we don't already know about and like, and then we'll trade for him after we find out he's good. And also, when it comes to the impact types, most of the learning they do is going to take place at the MLB level anyway because they're good enough to fly through the system on their own. You don't give the Rangers credit for Danks when he was already a Double A-quality pitcher when they drafted him. You give the Sox credit for nurturing him, Coop for working with him, etc.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 03:40 PM) I think a few people here have made arguments already. Minnesota and Detroit and Cleveland also operate under conditions different than the Red Sox or Yankees do; in fact, pretty much every club in the U.S. does. But usually when one of those clubs sucks completely, somebody gets fired. That's true in all of sports. Not here apparently. We won't even fire the hitting coach. I will agree with you there about Kenny's improper amount of trust and confidence in members of his own staff. I've made arguments backing that up, and it has gotten Kenny in trouble many times before, not just this year, and not just with Ozzie. The whole main point of my entire argument here is this: the Kenny hate here is irrational. There are some legitimate areas of concern with Kenny, but the majority of the faults defined are overstated overreactions prompted by perhaps the most talented collection of losers we Sox fans have seen in a long time, if ever. Kenny needs to get better in some areas, definitely, but he has made a lot of great moves, and the moves that are making most fans angry right now are more on the players than anything else. The philosophy behind those moves is sound, even if the moves themselves stink to high hell. This stuff about the farm system is just another example of going overboard with the Kenny hate. When you don't have the money to spend, you simply don't have the money to spend. It has been well-documented on this site for years now the level of frustration that Sox fans have had with the farm system. And it is perfectly fine to fault Kenny for some players, some moves, etc. but when you can't play by the same rules as everyone else it makes it harder to achieve the same level of success as everyone else. And BTW, of all the Sox comps thrown out, the very best one might be the Twins. That, right there, is another low-budget, low-resource, low-leverage situation over there when it comes to stocking up a farm system and then developing good MLB players. We have actually over time produced as much or more impact type talent, but they produce a lot more good players than we do, and if there's some set of standards that we could reasonably be expected to reach given the restraints surrounding us, I'd say it would be the Twins who would set them.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) There needs to be a balance between effective draft and international signing and development along with good strategy and spending at the MLB level. Otherwise it is very hard to rebuild and remain competitive (as in the Rays losing their best players to FA or having to trade soon bound FA stars because they can't resign them). I agree completely with this and always have. QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) But teams that draft and develop well and aren't afraid to trade prospects (but also keep a few) are the ones who consistently succeed. Just look at the Phillies, they have acquired some of the best and biggest names out there for prospects the past 2-3 years, but they STILL have the #4 prospect in baseball. They can keep feeding that machine they have at the MLB level with great talent because they have the talent in the minors to trade. Boston is another great example of how to mix trades, FAs, and internally developed players. Again, I agree. I'd do backflips if the Sox would do this. QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 03:41 PM) I actually have acclaimed KW many times for his ability to scout players close to the majors or already in the majors, especially pitchers. He's done some veryyy good low risk/high reward type moves in acquiring these players, but when it comes to getting that superstar or building a consistent winner, well, he's failed. Agree again. Because Kenny works under JR's restrictions we can't expect Kenny to do the same things other teams can. It'll take a brand new CBA with a strict slotting system and a worldwide draft for the playing field to be leveled. If it is, Kenny's pure scouting ability I think will become more apparent, and the results will show themselves on the field.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 03:35 PM) Daniels and Epstein I'd have confidence doing better....he very quickly learned after the Danks/McCarthy fiasco and then Chris Young/Adam Eaton/Adrian Gonzalez/Aki Otuska mess. Trading away Francisco Cordero. He started off looking like one of the worst GM's in major league history and quickly learned on the go...with one of the most interesting "non-baseball" backgrounds ever. Good testament to trust the staff underneath you, instead of trying to micromanage everything yourself, like most super egotistical Beane-like GM's who think they walk on water and can never step in shi- because it simply doesn't exist in their world. With our revenue streams, there's no way we couldn't have a comparative level of success with the Giants, Cardinals, Angels, Phillies or Mariners (early 00's). The Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs, those are unfair comparisons. And the Rangers not so long ago were technically bankrupt thanks to Tom Hicks risky real estate buyouts and leveraged buyout of soccer teams. It's interesting you mention the Giants. Sabean made one of the worst deals we have seen with the AJ trade, but he also took a shot on Lincecum not getting hurt, and has made some other very good moves. Rowand and Zito bring that down a bit though. He's had some unfortunate things happen. Disagree completely about the Phillies, 100%, not even close. We'll have have the type of fanbase and support the Phillies have IMO. Cardinals I can see as a good comp. The Angels too, but keep in mind all those division titles along with the WS championship. It took them a while to get where they are now and have been. The main issue is this: some of these teams can go out and spend money to sign highly-touted prospects every international signing period and every amateur draft. The Sox may get a couple "scouting" type cheaper finds internationally which are usually so under the radar they go unreported, and in the amateur draft, they are lucky to get 5 guys who sign above slot, and there may be only one big-time (fallen first round) type of talent in there. When the Red Sox need to trade for an Adrian Gonazlez, their fans understand that the same time a year later their system will contain enough pieces to make another major push for another major star. Sox fans consider themselves lucky to make a major push for a big star, and they know that if they have enough to get it done, they'll be pretty bare for a while to come given a $5-6M total budget for all amateur and international signings over the next period, with most of that going to one first round player.

QUOTE (LVSoxFan @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 03:30 PM) I don't get all the woe-is-Kenny stuff. Great argument. Kenny has to operate under completely different conditions than the Red Sox or Yankees do. Phillies as well. Comparing Kenny's situation to the GMs over there is ignorant and stupid.

We offered Danks, Gio, Sweeney, and Fields for Cabrera. At the time we didn't have the bullets, but in hindsight, that would have been a terrific package for Cabrera and one of the few times where a team trading a superstar player could look at the deal and say "we actually didn't get hosed here."

Ugh. Let's see Theo Epstein or Brian Cashman or Jon Daniels come to a large market city with a payroll generally towards the bottom of the top-10 and build a highly-rated farm system with a minuscule international free agency budget, no ability to participate in the posting process, under orders to stick as close to the slotting system as possible, with a small draft budget overall while picking in the middle or towards the bottom every year, AND with the expectation of contending every single season, AND lacking the financial freedom to offer salary arb each year to a bunch of guys who you don't even want back just for the sake of draft picks. Put those guys in Kenny's shoes and I doubt any do better.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 02:38 PM) You can go through all the drafts and do this... But the most recent ones, missing Garza in the first round for a collegiate "control" pitcher...not having the guts (and this is true of the rest of baseball, unfortunately it was a division rival) to pay Porcello's demands, not having a Maybin/Miller who at least LOOKED good enough to pry away Miguel Cabrera from the Marlins instead of him coming to the Southside...or the more recent Trout/Mitchell one. If we don't go over slot in the drafting process, then you can't come up total ZERO in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela. For christ's sake, our manager is one of the most famous celebrities in the history of that country and we have what...Gregory Infante or Clevelan Santeliz (I know he's gone now) to show for it? The irony is that Ozzie's machisimo nonsense...he has to challenge every single Hispanic player like Miguel or Victor Martinez when he has the chance instead of showing them the respect they deserve and walking them. Maybe it all started with how he had that sniping contest in public with Magglio Ordonez? Yeah, yeah...we got Omar Vizquel 5-10 years too late, yay! And if you blame Dave Wilder, then the lack of accountability STILL bounces back to KW. If anyone in Obama's administration messes up, who does the GOP point the finger at? It seems like KW has gotten a lot of slack for his lack of institutional control and trusting or being loyal to his "lieutenants" too much. And congrats, we've finally gotten away from drafting football/baseball hybrids and deferred instead to finally picking "pure/refined" baseball products like Gordon "Future Jeter" Beckham and Keenyn Walker instead of the Mitchells, Fields and Borchards of the world. Losing that draft pick with Adam Dunn just about adds enough insult to injury...God hope that Chris Sale becomes the next Randy Johnson as a starter and shuts everyone up for awhile. Jesus Christ I'm wasting too much time on this site today, but I have to respond to this, because as always, you make good points. It's not right to give Kenny a free pass on everything. Yes, Wilder was his friend and screwed him, but Kenny shouldn't have trusted him so much. Kenny also should have steered clear of the Broadways and McCullochs, but he did not. Who cares if some of the lower-ceiling picks were Duane Schaffer guys or not, Kenny was the head in charge, that all falls on him. My problem is this: if you are calling for Kenny to be fired then you think the Sox can bring someone else in who will be better. I do not believe that is true. 1. You can't knock him for taking big dollar risks. Fans always want to trade their s***ty prospects for someone else's star; fans always want to get Teherans and Dominick Browns for their players; fans always want to spend more money, and stop being so damn cheap all the time. Well, if the fans want something for nothing, and they want to spend the money, and they want proven players in the PRIMES - not old guys - and if the fans want a TRUE ace of Cy Young caliber, and a REAL CF for once to put a stop to the BA/Owens/Erstad/Mackowiak/Wise/Griffey/Swisher/Terrero/Sweeney/etc. garbage, and if they want a REAL middle-of-the-order LH bat who will mash the ball and get on base at a .400 clip, then what do you do? You get them a Jake Peavy, Alex Rios, and Adam for a combined nothing short of a draft pick and Clayton Richard. Who the f*** out there does better than that? 2. The fans want to win now - and I'm not talking about like 7 nuthuggers on Soxtalk who want to keep everyone, I am talking about the fans in the city and suburbs who have s*** to do today that's more important than what I'm doing sitting here on my ass typing this - THOSE PEOPLE want to win. Those people are okay with trading prospects for proven vets. Take a look at Kenny's entire GM history, and who he has traded and who he was come up with. Again, who does better? 3. The farm system. He has made his mistakes, certainly. But given what he has had to deal with in the Wilder scandal, plus (and most importantly) all the restrictions put on him by ownership, again, who does better? Consider the prospects he has acquired also, the Gavin Floyd' and John Danks' of his tenure here. Who does better? You can go on and on. Like I have said, there is one area where I believe Kenny is totally, definitively lacking, and even the Wilder scandal touches this, and possibly the Teahen deal also (Buddy Bell's input?), and that is the totally inappropriate amount of faith, input, and control he allows to those beneath him on the organizational totem pole. For all the negativity that Sox fans do now and have in the past tossed JR's way, JR, at the very minimum, seems to be an "in the background" kind of guy, and I doubt he's telling Kenny what to do or what not to do every step of the way. I firmly believe that as much as JR and Ozzie love each other, if Kenny insisted that Ozzie left town, and held firm, JR would allow for it. JR would certainly allow Kenny to call up Dayan in opposition to Ozzie's thinking. I see this as one area where undoubtedly someone else can come in and do a much better job, especially someone who hasn't spent most or all of his career with Reinsdorf. So I see one great reason to can Kenny, and several other reasons not to. I believe, though, that if Kenny finally gets Ozzie out of town he may change and be a much better GM, having learned from all these experiences. But that is just me.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 02:12 PM) You do realize that having a deep and talented farm system helps win, right?? Being able to replenish your team with young cost controlled players allows for bigger extensions or FA signings. Or you could trade prospects for players you want to fill holes (look at the Phillies). We handicap ourselves, whether that's JR or Kenny, we have no one to blame but ourselves. Go overslot, have better draft philosophy, develop better. There are way to many internal problems that hurt the Sox than external. Don't blame draft position, because other teams have shown that they acn have worst draft position than the Sox and succeed leaps and bounds over what the Sox do. And yes, we trade away prospects that go on to succeed, which wouldn't matter if the players we got back in return led us to a freaking playoff appearance (or better). Then why aren't the Orioles winning right now? Reality is very different. You plug in young, cost-controlled players who you think the world of and sometimes they become great and help you win. Most of the time they underachieve, often all the way to Japan or the indy leagues. It is pie-in-the-sky to believe that plugging in young players all the time actually works. It does not. Usually you deplete their value letting them struggle in the majors and then you're forced to move them for less and try to bring in a veteran to make up for lost time, and lost ground in the win column. And the poster I was responding to was trying to lay the blame for the farm on Kenny. Kenny isn't the one setting the limits on slot bonuses and draft budgets. He's not the one trying to stick with Selig. And yes, I agree, I'd love to see us play the same game as everyone else, but we're not going to, and that is not Kenny's fault. That doesn't mean I am absolving Kenny of everything. I am not. But he's been the whipping boy this year, and of all the criticism, the only area where I think it is even remotely reasonable to call for his head is in the area of personal ownership and control, and by that I mean he doesn't do what he wants to do all the time. That, however, is what he is paid to do. When he needs to overrule Ozzie he does not. I can see fans wanting to can him for not calling up Viciedo right now or for not firing Greg Walker or Ozzie. It is totally unreasonable OTOH to want to can him for signing Adam Dunn, or for drafting and playing (instead of selling high) on Gordon Beckham, or for taking on the contracts of Rios or Peavy.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 01:08 PM) It's far more than that. Sometimes those are escalated by a bad farm system. Look at many of the farm system failures. The at one time highly regarded prospects are such failures that they are practically out of organized baseball. That responsibility falls under the GM because they are in charge of scouting and development. This is the worst argument of all. Fans love to pin farm system failures on Kenny Williams. Here are the problems with that: -Reinsdorf seems to be the only owner left who tries to do right by Selig. The rules don't seem to apply to most of the other teams. -Draft position makes it harder to get the guys (first round) that the Sox would see as deserving of over-slot bonuses and multi-million dollar bonuses. -ALL TEAMS fail to develop talent. This needs to be accounted for, with the Sox appropriately weighted because of their position. You can't fault Kenny for not signing players the Texas Rangers sign and for not giving out bonuses the Texas Rangers give out, because Reinsdorf would never allow for that. -Kenny trades prospects for talent. What so-and-so who is in another organization does or does not do does not matter anymore. The only thing that matters is what value the Sox got out of that player while he was here. So Kenny plays by different rules and he uses talent as trading chips. Whaddya know, a weak farm system results. In real life, ie not computerized internet baseball, the success of an organization is judged by success on the field and in terms of revenue. So I really don't care about what teams have better farm systems, I care about whether or not we are winning, and ownership cares about whether or not we're making money. Really, I don't care if we have the worst system in baseball as long as we win. And to that end, go ahead and take away all those trades Kenny made where he traded prospects for veterans, and pencil them all in, and try to see what teams we would have ended up with over the last several years. They wouldn't have been very good teams. That said, we could do a lot better when it comes to Latin American scouting and signing. But still, don't ever expect JR to greenlight a Yankees-esque total abuse of the system.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) I'll agree 100% about Dunn and Peavy. With Rios, they just didn't do their homework. KW prides himself on doing his "due diligence" and talking to people all around baseball about a guy before an acquisition....as well as the key members of his own team. Physically, he's one of the most POTENTIALLY talented players in baseball. And GM's/Scouts fall in love with these guys and never give up on the idea of acquiring them or being the guy who finally turns their career around. Who would Kenny have talked to? The manager that wanted to fight his own players? The coaching staff, who must have at least been part of the problem if the manager was that bad? The players on a losing team, who probably aren't the best people to be talking to in the middle of bad season? Frank Thomas? And even so, you can talk all you want. You're bound to hear "so-and-so is a hard worker/great clubhouse guy/etc, etc." and none of that matters until you've got him in uniform and you can see for yourself. Talent is all you can go by save for some of the Elijah Dukes-variety red flags which can't be spun into positives no matter how hard you try. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) It's just not about talent with a baseball team. We've always been more talented than the Twins until the last season. It's just that you can't keep turning around 6-7-8-9 players from the roster every single season unless you're willing to oscillate up and down like the stock market. KW tinkers way too much...for most of the last 3 seasons, this team and organization has had ZERO identity. Who are they? I think that's one of the 20 or so reasons fans just can't quite get behind this team. It's impossible to have small turnover in MLB. The Red Sox have a ton of new players, as do the Indians, Tigers, Yankees, Rays, the list just goes on. We've probably had less turnover than those guys have the last couple years and they're still better than us. As far as no identity, we've got MB, Paulie, AJ... and that's pretty much our identity around the league, plus JR, Ozzie, and Kenny. Oh, and the fact that we fold up the tent whenever the Twins come to town. That's also part of our identity, which Kenny has tried to change BTW by bringing in more talent. Funny how Thome was part of the problem until he went to the Twins, where he became part of the solution. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) And KW's secondary moves.....Pierre, Teahen, Linebrink, Manny Ramirez...almost all of them have been colossal busts recently. Manny was a product of the Thome non-signing, which was the worst thing Kenny has ever done, and he did it because he listened to Ozzie. Pierre was all Ozzie as well. Linebrink = the other side of the Jesse Crain signing, and it happens. It's hard to argue for the move, but at the same time, Linebrink had been one of the best relievers in all of baseball for quite some time, and relievers are always ultra risky. That '07 pen was atrocious. What do you do? It was one of his poorer moves, but you could've easily defended it at the time if you wanted to. Teahen, I will admit, I have no earthly idea what he was thinking. My point though is that of these moves you have mentioned, Linebrink was at least defensible and was welcomed by many at the time given how bad the '07 pen was, and a lot of GMs get burned on relievers. Teahen was a brainfart, no doubt. The other two moves definitely reflect Kenny's greatest weakness, which is allowing the manager too much input. I can see wanting Kenny canned for that reason, truthfully. QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) But if you didn't have Gio Gonzalez and Hudson pitching well for other teams and Beckham flailing away for two consecutive seasons when we were promised and hyped Pedroia/Utley-esque numbers, there wouldn't be a problem for so many with KW. I agree with this, but fans are being too demanding (and whiny) here. Kenny's win-now mentality got us Freddy Garcia for a package that really pissed off Sox fans. Jeremy Reed's value to Sox fan prospect lovers far eclipsed any love Hudson ever got here, and that's not even mentioning Miguel Olivo who many thought would be an all-star one day, or Mike Morse, who was seen as the "throw-in" but, obviously as we see now, had a lot of potential. Kenny's win-moves have been better more often than not, and that's because good prospects don't usually pan out. And the Hudson s*** here has been some of the worst crap I've ever seen on this site, just totally nuts. The guy was a fifth round pick, a reliever with a couple good pitches and some deception, who ended up becoming an overachiever. We traded him for a guy with tons of ability to try to win. The Brewers, Nats, Padres, and I'm sure several other teams passed on Hudson, because they, like the Sox, saw him as a #3 or so. The fans here who prognosticate so much have no idea whatsoever how little they know, nor any idea how much time and money organizations spend trying to evaluate prospects in anticipation of deals. There are scouts all over the country I am sure who are just amazed at what Hudson has been able to do with his talent, and how he has been able to mature so quickly on the mound. It seems that a few loud posters on a couple Sox sites got all bent out of shape about a trade and then, when Hudson proved them right, it gave them so much confidence that they actually now believe they're smarter than Kenny Williams or the Sox staff in general, and I think this has infected the rest of the board. I truly believe there are fans who somehow believe that they, with their few blurbs and scouting reports, snippets of video, couple of games they saw, baseball reference access, etc. are better at identifying talent and making decisions on talent than the Sox are with their mountains of resources and proven staff. I think the Jackson trade is what set most of this in motion, and my god is that dumb. If this team had a pulse going into September last year that trade for all purposes may look golden right now, and that is what Kenny was banking on more than anything else. And then Beckham - that guy was everyone's favorite at one time. Why blame Kenny for keeping him when EVERYONE wanted to keep him? Should he have known he was going to be bad? QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 12:18 PM) And then there's been the failure to even countenance a change in the hitting coach or just shaking up the coaching staff in general. I guess we fired Tim Raines, yay! That had a big impact, clearly. I think THIS is the only legitimate reason to be upset at KW. He needs to take MORE control of the team IMO and stop deferring to people he is paid to overrule. If people want to look at the lack of responsibility he has taken and can him for that, I couldn't argue there. But from a moves only perspective I fail to see how he has been a bad GM. BTW isn't a funny how fans are so quick to pull out that "unlucky" bulls*** about players who constantly get caught out in front and ground out, so much so that it's in the scouting report as a plan of attack, but then when it comes to signing/taking on good players with market value-at-the-time deals, a GM can't simply be "unlucky" himself?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 11:30 AM) You'd have to say Jose Contreras was the biggest "off the scrap heap" move that KW ever made. And B. McCarthy wasn't a high draft pick, and he netted us Danks...who will be getting a payday contract from SOMEONE (not us) for close to $100 million. Quentin, too. Alexei. Pods and Iguchi. AJ. Dye. Many, many examples. But these last three years have almost worn out the patience of most Sox fans. There are fewer and fewer willing to defend either him or Ozzie these days. Especially with Rios/Dunn/Peavy rearing their ugly heads on a nightly basis. Rios was a great move on paper at the time. Kenny looked like a GENIUS this time last year. We could have traded Alex for multiple prospects and full salary relief this time last year. Peavy, another great move on paper for which Kenny was publicly lauded. He gave up basically a #4/5 starter in the AL and a bunch of nothing. Even at the time that looked like a steal for the Sox. Dunn was one of the best players on the FA market and we had to compete for his services. Another good move on paper at the time. Those 3 contracts, plus Buehrle's extension, plus the 4-year deal to Paulie after '05 of which he only earned his money for half of the deal, IIRC have been the greatest financial obligations Kenny has made in his 10+ year career as a GM. How often to 3 of those 5 backfire like this in a 1.5 year timeframe? Also, we have Dunn and Rios here for a few more years, and Peavy for next year. All three players are capable of making their situations look a whole lot better via vastly improved play, and all three have the ability to improve their play vastly. My point here is that calling for Kenny's head here for making 3 good on-paper moves that have turned out bad is irrational. WTF do people want? Kenny is a ninja, but he's no psychic ninja. He can observe a player's talent and look at what he has done in the past, and then go from there. Fans always want high payrolls and fans always want to get something for nothing, and now here are 3 cases of using a high payroll to get something for nothing and everyone's all pissy about it. This hate isn't the result of people thinking like intelligent baseball fans. It is the result of a a few players playing well below their career norms on a team full of losers with no direction. Blame the players, blame the team, maybe blame yourselves for demanding a higher standard of player and a higher payroll, because these things can happen when you go after pricey players with money to spend. If you're going to blame Kenny for anything you can blame him for taking big risks, nothing else, because the talent is there with all of these guys. But then if you're going to blame Kenny for taking big risks then you need to ask yourself why you as a fan get so emotional when Kenny doesn't trade the farm for Colby Rasmus the underperforming dickhead or sign whoever on the free agent market.

QUOTE (Anderson Cooper's Quivering @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 09:22 AM) Don't tell KennyGM. He'll trade Viciedo+Reed for him even though he's a free agent sitting at home (on a probably really small couch). And then he'll pick up another Thornton, Santos, Uribe, Humber, Loaiza, etc. off the scrap heap for nothing to completely negate those moves and then some. Keep in mind that idiot Kenny Williams is also the one who drafted both Gio Gonzalez and Dan Hudson after every other team in baseball had at least 1, if not 4-5 chances, at both players. Clearly Kenny misses his evaluations all the time, much to the chagrin of the Soxtalk crew who always know the right move to make well in advance. Teahen & Pierre were stupid. So was Wise, Owens, and Erstad. Not bringing back Thome last year was the worst, most indefensible move Kenny has made in his career. But the vast majority of his other moves that have backfired were nothing more than calculated risks. And they're called risks for a reason. Sox fans who want to watch a GM who doesn't take big risks might as well drop their Sox caps off at the door and go watch the Royals lose for another 10+ years.

QUOTE (GREEDY @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 11:02 AM) It wasn't, I just get very upset that most fans of this team can't seem to understand that it is a very viable strategy to not always be in "protect mode" every time you get two strikes... especially players with approaches like Dunn/Swisher/anyone who walks more than 75 times per year. I'm not following. Not swinging at a ball in the zone with 2 strikes like Dunn and Swisher do regularly... isn't that *NOT* being in protect mode already? What are you arguing for? Clearly that mindset hasn't served either of those guys well while wearing a Sox uniform. Dunn's issues seem to be entirely mental. Maybe he should stop counting the sheep above his head and look at the pitcher instead.

QUOTE (Middle Buffalo @ Aug 1, 2011 -> 08:44 AM) So your preference would be that a player not swing at strikes. That makes sense. LOL, so true. And Nick Swisher ran himself out of town by being a little scaredy cat girly man who was more concerned about the length of his hair than hitting the baseball. His "aww, shucks!" smile and shrug routine that seemed to follow every called third strike with RISP didn't help either.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 31, 2011 -> 02:38 AM) Then lets go find the OP and beat him senseless for doing this. We should smother him with our naked butts.

QUOTE (Cali @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) Oh man all this SOS talk gave me an idea I wish I were photoshop skilled in anyway, but maybe someone here can pull it off: Take the Sox early 80's logo with the guy batting with S-O-X underneath... Flip it so the batter is upside down and change S-O-X into S-O-S with the same font as the real logo. Could also stand for "Same Old s***"

I would fall head over heels in love with a deal that sends out Thornton + Humber while getting back Holland and a spect. Holland IMO is going to be the best player in that deal, no doubt. I would likewise enjoy shipping Will Ohs*** to the Red Sox or Yankees. Bruney can go there to. Then ( ) maybe they can help us beat those guys in the playoffs ***WHEN, not IF*** we get there.

QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 01:51 PM) - Watch DVR'd season of "Tyler Perry's House of Payne" - Take out trash every Wednesday morning - Monday night visits to local Shoney's - Arrange closet by colors, from darkest to lightest, for all pants, short-sleeved & long-sleeved shirts - Attempt to set clock on microwave EDIT: - Swats at moths near backyard flood lights and misses terribly Ha Adam Dunn is currently amazed by the fact that his July batting average is almost the exact same number he punches into the microwave to heat up a burrito.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:35 AM) I just don't agree with this. Quentin is 1/2 of our productive offensive players right now and dealing him would severely hurt this team's chances of winning the division. Take CQ out of the lineup and Paulie will be pitched around 2-3 times per game. Even if Viciedo has recovered from his injury, expecting him to put up an .860 OPS down the stretch is wishful thinking. And I am very high on Dayan over the long run. He's just not a proven commodity at this point. Isn't Quentin still under team control in 2012? Why not just deal him in December? Sure, you'll get less in return, but you won't have to tank you playoff chances this year. I completely agree with this, and this is why I was pissed about the Jackson trade. In addition to being a very solid back-of-the-rotation guy, he was a great insurance policy. I don't expect Viciedo to necessarily light the world on fire, but I do expect him to be good, and I do expect him to drive in some runs. I'll put it this way: if the Sox don't trade Q, I won't be pissed about it. If the Sox do trade Q, and they pick up a couple (or 3) very good-looking young players, and at least one of them is going to contribute right now in addition to Viciedo, then I won't be pissed about it. If the Sox trade Q and get back a future #4 starter and a couple toolsy projects with an ETA of 2014 then I will be f***ing irate.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:09 AM) Interleague Play began in 1997. "A couple of bad trades" is a hell of a lot different than "completely giving up on a competitive team." If you don't want to take my word for it, ask some of the 30+ crowd here about the fan reaction to the White Flag Trade. I really don't think trading Quentin is giving up though. If I thought that and wanted to see us give up, I would be advocating trading John Danks, since his value is greater than CQ, or Floyd, whose value is also greater than CQ. I want to win this year, but I also would make a deal where we get significant pieces back for Q while bringing up Viciedo. CQ right now is better than Dayan, but CQ is also having a decent-for-Carlos year, but not a great-for-Carlos year, and at any time he could simply disappear again. The difference defensively may be a wash, and offensively may not turn out to be as significant as some may think. OTOH, Peavy is antique china and Humber I still do not trust. Another young SP would really make me feel better about this season. Bruney scares the hell out of me too. Frasor helps a LOT, but pushing Bruney back to Charlotte would really make me excited about our pen. I feel it is reasonable to assume we could pull off a deal that makes us at least as good if not better than we are now, with the difference between Viciedo and Q being made up elsewhere. And as a bonus, maybe we end up with a bit of a change in culture/clubhouse atmosphere, which might not be a bad thing right now.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:43 PM) I'd imagine that there are a heck of a lot more season ticket-holders now than between 1995-2004... 1995: 1.6M 1996: 1.7M 1997: 1.9M 1998: 1.4M (White Flag Trade) 1999: 1.3M 2000: 1.9M (made the playoffs) 2001: 1.8M 2002: 1.7M 2003: 1.9M 2004: 1.9M 2005: 2.3M (WS) 2006-2010: 2.2-3.0M Season ticket-holders are key to being able to sign high-tier free agents and to acquire players with big contracts at the trade deadline. There's no way that Kenny could've made some of the moves that he's done over the past 5 years with the 1995-1999 revenues. Baseball as a whole also realized record revenues and attendance figures over the last decade (drew over 200 million more fans than the previous decade) and also, the Cell underwent some major renovations during the period of increase, so those would be factors as well. Season ticket holders are the hardcore fans and they definitely respond most favorably to winning, but the post-White Flag era days, all across the game, were very different than now, and there was no interleague play, no crosstown classic, no WS championship to remember, etc. So the argument of season ticket holders dropping off after a couple bad trades would hold some water, but trying to imply a return of some of the figures you mentioned is a pretty gigantic leap IMO. edit: scratch that, i forgot interleague play started that year... anyway, the game is still pretty different now, people have gotten past the strike, we have a title, the cell is different, etc... i don't think trading quentin kills us, basically

QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:41 PM) I swear there was a tweet back a few pages saying Brown may have not been off limits for Quentin. Regardless, the whole idea of trading Quentin now is to take advantage of desperate teams in a bidding war. If that doesn't happen, there's obviously no reason to trade him. Just gonna go ahead and highlight that one a bit

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance We're 19th in average attendance (damn weather) and I was being sarcastic. Trading Carlos for a couple of pieces that can contribute very soon or even right now and then calling up the Cuban Tank may not be a killer move as far as this season goes. This division is so bad we could be a game under .500 in the first week of September and still make a run. Maybe injecting some more youth is exactly what the doctor ordered.

Man, those 30,000+ that pack the Cell every night sure are going to be mad when they find out we've traded Carlos.