Kenny Hates Prospects

It doesn't sound like much in that article is accurate. The Phils made a major push for Pence, not Quentin. CQ wasn't the guy they wanted, and for obvious reasons. And I don't think De Aza, Viciedo, or anyone we have (not much) is pushing CQ out the door as much as his contract situation, defensive incapabilities, and injury history are. In that sense, KW could say anything, even "We're going to be a veteran team in 2012" and it would still seem likely that CQ will be traded. KW's comments, if anything can be inferred, would appear to signal the end of one or both of Danks/Floyd, not Carlos. Sale as a starter is a decision that has nothing to do with MB or anyone else. They must really believe he can make it as a top-end starter to take him out of the pen where he is one of the nastiest guys in the league, and if they believe that, then they would make a spot for him no matter what. The AJ-Flowers question is all about whether they think Flowers can make it. He's a much better hitter now than he was in earlier stints, but is it enough? IMO if the Sox have any confidence in him at all as a full-time player they will eat a couple mil on AJ and send him to a contender, bringing in a veteran tutor as a backup (if Sandy is the next manager or is on the next coaching staff he could definitely help). Otherwise, AJ will get the majority of time behind the plate with Flowers as a backup and getting more work in at 1B. The Sox aren't going to make AJ sit, nor are they going to wait around an extra year to accommodate him if they feel Flowers has some kind of future as a starter.

Martinez couldn't pull off the Rays way without the Rays players any more than Ozzie could pull off the Sox way (i.e. underperform, play like s***, quit before you've even started, cry a good amount of the time, blame other people, fight about stuff, talk about how you're imrproving on The Score and then proceed to go 0-4 with 3 K's in the game) with the Sox players. The Rays way is something we'll never see here, and also something you rarely see anywhere. Just think, these guys let Josh Hamilton go for nothing. Nothing. And they're still the best organization in baseball. Just think about that for a minute. Martinez needs to be separated from anything Rays-related IMO. Martinez is simply a good, veteran baseball man with an aptitude for advanced statistics who seems to be very thorough and well-liked by his players. If you hire him, that's who you're hiring; you're not replacing the ownership, the front office, the scouting staff, the baseball academies, the farm system, and swapping the payroll.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 02:21 AM) I disagree...the Rays have managed to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees with about 30% of their payrolls...I think there isn't a lot that you could throw at the guy where he wouldn't know what he was in for...it's not like he's been the bench coach of the Rockies or something... There's probably no difference between being a bench coach for the Rockies or Rays when it comes to the demands of the media. He doesn't have to deal with the media. He doesn't have to deal with the bad stuff. He doesn't have to carry all that weight himself, Maddon has done it. And Maddon has happily done all that in a city that really doesn't care all that much about baseball and has pretty much only had good things going on during his tenure. Dave Martinez has no idea what he would be walking into, which is my point. He would be walking into a situation where, from the very get-go, he'd be smacked in the face with questions he couldn't possibly answer. What, is he going to compare Adam Dunn's situation to Pat Burrell's or something? Put yourself in his shoes, how would you deal with all the Dunn questions? Sox fans aren't very happy right now and Sox fans are a pretty passionate bunch. They'll throw him a parade the day he's hired, but they'll be up his ass by the end of April if things aren't going right. I'd be happy if we hired him too because I think that, just like there's no reason we should expect him capable of handling the toughest aspects of the job, there's no reason we shouldn't expect him capable of that. I just think this site is way too generous to Martinez and way too hard on Sandy. On paper, Sandy is certainly no less qualified for the greatest demands of the job that is managing this team in this city, and that's all that matters. I would definitely bet Sandy is also very open to the SABR side as well, and I'd also bet that he's competent enough to appoint the necessary help if he needs any.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 30, 2011 -> 02:09 AM) Except he has been here (in Chicago) at a time when the stadium was fairly new and expectations were high with those early 90's White Sox teams. If he didn't have the prior connection to the Sox, I would tend to agree 100%. This is the same thing that happened to Todd Lickliter when he left Butler for the University of Iowa. The fishbowl that is Iowa or Nebraska sports coverage (all the focus in on those two university's basketball and football teams) just tore him apart eventually. He wasn't ready for it, even though you have the analogy of reaching the spotlight of the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 or ALCS/NLCS, etc. I do think the Martinez love or whatever you want to call it is 100% attributable to 1) the notion that he's more SABR/mathematics oriented, 2) the "genius" of Joe Maddon supposedly rubbing off, and their 3/4 playoff success in that division and 3) most Sox fans here would seem to prefer the type of GM who will stand up against KW and not just be an "organizational guy" like they, for whatever reason, are perceiving or have perceived Alomar Jr., to be. If Sandy hadn't spent so much time here as a player, I would probably be more open-minded about him. And yet I'm using the fact that Dave Martinez WAS here as well...yet it predates the KW time period of GM by quite a margin. 1) How do we know Sandy isn't completely open to using advanced stats also? We know Martinez is, but just because we know half of it doesn't mean we can score it Martinez 1, Alomar 0 in this category. Kenny is here for the time being and Hahn is looking like he's probably going to take over in 2013, so both of them are going to want the next manager to be at least open to the SABR kind of side of it, especially after the Ozzie debacle. 2) This part (the genius of Joe Maddon, the Rays success) is completely meaningless. The Rays have a whole lot more talent than we do, a better better payroll situation than we do, a better farm system and staff, etc. Apples and oranges. 3) Every manager is below the GM, the assistant GM, the ownership, etc. Every manager should, to quote The Rock, "Know your role and shut your mouth." The manager needs to be on the same page as those above him. A dumb organizational guy going along with those above him would be of greater use to us than another renegade who thinks he deserves to be treated as if the chain of power starts with himself. Personally, I'd love Martinez on the surface, and I'd also love Sandy on the surface. For all the praise posters are throwing at Martinez, Sandy Alomar has been in just about every situation you can imagine in the game of baseball, from terrible teams to truly great teams; he's been an All-Star and a 3rd string back-up; he's assuredly experienced the best and worst clubhouses; he's probably seen every managerial style out there; he's been through the steriod era and beyond, before, during, and after its peak, and has had a father who was an excellent MLB player himself raise him, so he's seen the game itself grow and change - he's basically lived baseball at the MLB level his entire life; he's caught some of the greatest pitchers of his generation; his brother is a HOFer; he's come from one of the greatest baseball families this sport has known, and has garnered tremendous respect the game over from fans to coaches to players to managers to front office executives; and he also knows the ins and outs of the game like the back of his hand. If it comes down to Sandy vs. Dave Martinez I will feel, as a Sox fan, like we can do no wrong, and also, like we will get better no matter what. However as I've said, ultimately it comes down to whether or not these guys can deal with the s***storms, deal with the anger and the joy and the ups and downs, deal with the injuries and prima donna players and bad trades, etc. and still get their players to go out there onto the field and give it at least most of what they've got at least most of the time. Neither of these candidates have done anything like this before and there is no reason to expect that they will or will not be able to do it. They're both totally unproven, but they are both legitimate prospects. If you want proven you go with Francona. But if you go with a prospect I don't see how you can look at the Rays situation and then expect that s*** to happen over here just because you hired Martinez. That's retarded. If we hire Dave Martinez we still have the 2012 White Sox playing for him and those guys don't look very good. I really see no reason to favor him over Sandy when they're both equally unproven in the most important aspects.

I'd try to go 2 years on CQ before dealing him just because maybe there's something there. CQ is coming off a decent year for himself, but it wasn't the kind of year he (and his agent) were probably hoping for, nor was it a bad year by any means. Because there's the injury history I doubt you want to go 3+ years on Carlos guaranteed, but maybe he and his agent would be amenable to some extra security in a second year, which could allow the Sox to possibly pay him less in 2012 than he'd get in arb alone. And then, if it's possible, you can protect Carlos by hiding him in LF and using him as a DH quite a bit. If he's healthy enough to put up numbers you can move him later for at least a somewhat decent prospect (which is kind of what I think he'd bring now) with the upside being you may be able to pull a haul. Of course, there's definitely risk there too. Maybe I'm understating CQ's value to other teams also. If someone out there is willing to give up a really nice-looking arm for him who profiles as a starter and is less than 2 years away, I would move him to be clear of the risk and cash in now. I'm not sure other teams would think he's worth that though.

That's a nice article on Martinez, but it's a fluff piece. Expect one (and maybe several) about Sandy, and perhaps hundreds talking up Francona if he is indeed gone. The main thing is, what will any of these candidates do to make Adam Dunn become a Major League player again? What will they do to turn Rios around, or make Beckham reach at least half his potential? What will they do to make sure that Sale, if he is converted to a starter, becomes a #3 starter or better? Etc. etc. These are all pretty tall tasks and if they can't be done then whoever is managing is going to have to deal with the resulting s***storm from the fans and media. I think there is especially too much Dave Martinez love in here. Tampa Bay is not the market Chicago is. They are not the baseball city Chicago is and neither is their fanbase as passionate. Furthermore, everything is peachy in Tampa ATM while the Sox are deep in the s***ter. On paper Martinez is highly qualified, without a doubt, but he has no idea what he's in for, nor does any other non-veteran candidate, and there's no reason to believe that just because he knows the game like the back of his hand he is also capable of managing a bad team with multiple albatrosses in a major market full of angry fans, and staying positive throughout the process, persevering, and making it through the light at the end of the tunnel.

Keep Frasor & trade Crain if possible. Heavily shop Thornton & definitely move Ohman. If I were Kenny I would ask Paulie on a personal level whether or not he wants to be here in 2012 and going forward. If not I would move him and make it look like a Sox FO decision only. If so, he's pretty much the one piece I'm not shopping since outside of him the entire lineup ATM looks like bottom of the order hitters. Danks has to be traded to the highest bidder. Floyd should be extended further IMO, if possible. Try to bring back MB. Try to get a 2-year deal with CQ avoiding arb. Otherwise, only trade him if you absolutely have to. As long as he's pretty healthy he'll be movable around the deadline if we have to move him. I just don't want to dump his deal for a marginal prospect when there's still a real chance he could emerge in July as one of, if not the, top power bat on the market. Acquire as much pitching as possible. Absolutely do not, under any circumstances, count on anything from Axelrod in the future. Don't even say his name much less pencil it in. OTOH, please get someone to work closely with Hector Santiago & Zack Stewart as I love those guys.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 11:22 PM) Has he ever won a World Series with a payroll of $90-105 million? That's perhaps the main issue of importance. The Red Sox didn't hire him because he had 2 WS titles. And if we hire him, we need to hire him for the same reasons the Red Sox did. My main issue re: Francona is his perception of being a players manager almost to a fault. We don't have Big Papis and Mannys here, but we will have more young talent that needs to be kind of protected a bit IMO. But I guess you never know what you're getting until you get it, so maybe Francona would adopt a different type of personality here. No matter what though, Francona would be seen as a "win now" or at least a "win soon" hire, as well as a "money" hire, and I don't think we need any of those things. So if we bring him in, again, do it for the right reasons.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 29, 2011 -> 10:08 PM) Coach K's guys haven't done all that well either, but who knows? If the Sox have good players, no matter who they hire, will be considered a good manager. If they have bad players, they will wind up getting waxed. Joe Torre was an idiot when he had bad players and a HOF manager when he had great ones. There are probably a lot of guys like him. This is pretty much exactly it. However, beyond that, there are a few specific qualities I would like to see. 1) Please no gigantic ego. I don't want anyone who thinks he is bigger than the team, city, players, organization, or the game itself. No more distractions. No more DHing Omar Vizquel or Mark Kotsay just to be different, and no batting the pitcher 8th for the same reason. 2) I want someone humble and willing to learn, someone who is overflowing with knowledge of the game but yet would consider himself more or less a blank slate. I want someone who is open to all new ideas but still sits on an old-school type baseball foundation - upside/potential based on tools, stuff, mechanics. I definitely do not want some dogmatic preacher who insists on making out his lineup card based on old baseball adages or fangraph spunk. Give me a guy who will actually read the advanced stats and also knows context. Give me someone who will make his mistakes, but then will freely admit them, learn from them, and become a better manager as a result. 3) Like Ozzie, I want someone who will at least try to keep the clubhouse loose and try to make the season fun. Obviously this stuff doesn't last forever, but it's probably pretty nice while it lasts given the length of the baseball season and how much time the players are forced to spend with each other. 4) Also like Ozzie, I want a manager who will let a young pitcher work "too long." Pitchers need to be able to work themselves out of messy situations, go past the 100 pitch mark, finish out games when they can, etc. Over his tenure here this was Ozzie's best quality IMO. Cooper wouldn't nearly look like the genius he is with another Jerry Manuel managing this team. 5) We need someone who can deal with the asshole media. Imagine having a star athlete on your roster making millions upon millions of dollars, and then you, as a manager, having to coax the guy into playing and earning his money. Imagine trying to get a guy like this to give a s*** while simultaneously walking that fine line between hardass and pushover, and trying not to turn the rest of the team against you in the process. Then imagine that none of your efforts work, and the fans blame you for it, and the fans are breathing down your neck over it, and as a result you have the media asking the same "tough questions" over and over for weeks or even months on end, right in the middle of a disappointing season, with a camera and a microphone in your face at all times. Not many people can deal with that without getting drunk or exploding, or coming across as a powerless organizational puppet with zero respect from his players. To me, this all sounds like a younger manager with a long history in the game who has an open mind and is personable. However, there is no way, as a fan, to know the personalities of these guys enough to say that one guy is better than another. As long as we get someone who fits the above 1-4, I will be happy. However, you never know which guy is going to be able to deal with the media, so you just have to take your chances there. I doubt Coop or Sandberg could do that. My picks would be either Sandy, Dave Martinez, or Joe McEwing, and I'd be happy with any of them given what little I know of their make-up. After that it's just wait and see. BTW the teacher does not necessarily make the student, nor does the institution. Ozzie lasted 8 years here and presided over a World Championship and he was the most unconventional hire of them all. There are CEOs and company presidents with little if any college education who actually get invited to speak at the most hallowed institutions in the world and in front of students whose resumes at a similar age would dwarf those of the speakers themselves. This "managerial tree" stuff is really a bunch of nothing IMO, especially when you take into account that we are not talking about managing 1 highly important game right now, we're (ideally) talking about someone who will manage this club for at least the next 3-4 years. And whoever gets the job is going to inherit a likely non-contender anyway, meaning we shouldn't necessarily expect the newly hired to be ready to manage in the playoffs come October 2012. Whoever we get is going to have to develop his own unique way of doing things, and his success is probably going to have more to do with his personality than anything else - can he win the respect of his players, and can he deal with the media. Focusing on a "game" manager primarily is putting the cart before the horse.

I want no part of LaRussa at all. I'd rather make Hawk the manager. Seriously.

QUOTE (Wedge @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 10:10 PM) This might be a dumb question, but what's so great about a manager that uses SABR? There's little I dislike more in baseball than an absurd focus on advanced stats. But that said, we need BALANCE here. This organization always seems to be tilted too far one way or another. I want to have all ideas considered and all potential resources exploited. You need both sides to work together, and at first, that is what we got with KW & Ozzie as a pair. I think Kenny is pretty open to both sides of this, especially since the '05 run, and getting a manager who is also open to both the scouting/observational side as well as the advanced statistics/predictive side would be a step in the right direction.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 11:38 PM) I especially like that part. Thanks for posting this. I may have missed it. I loved it. I now feel vindicated as somebody wrote my true feelings on the matter. I still can't believe the White Sox were dumb enough to let Guillen go. But the writer pointed out great reasons why KW won the war over Ozzie. Great great column. Kenny didn't win s***. His career fell to its lowest point, he lost power to a manager, he was held back by an owner, and for his three biggest talent & payroll expenditures he got an unreliable 5th starter, a 4th OF, and a donkey. Meanwhile Kenny at least has the ability to correct some of these errors. Ozzie provides nothing at all that benefits this organization anymore. As crazy as it may seem, whatever Ozzie's ideas would have been with regard to improving the team, they almost certainly would have made us worse in 2012 and beyond. There was no power struggle here. It was a long and played out drama where one prima donna off-field ancillary character, who when at his best has minimal influence on the total performance of the team, flaunted his ego at every turn and kept a despondent and obviously neutered executive answering questions no GM should have to answer during the course of a baseball season. JR got sick of it and let Kenny take his belt. Ozzie was asking for a way out and he got it. I hope he takes his three little jerkoffs with him and Cowley too. I'll always love Ozzie for his time here as a player and for his first few years as a manager here, and for helping make baseball relevant here again, but he has nothing positive to offer this organization anymore.

I'm actually kind of impressed. Click on "'Duk" the author and you'll see that all this person does is blog about baseball all day and all night. He's really working for his money, gotta respect that. When the total amount of new content is deemed to be of greater value than the content itself, this is exactly what you get. Now time to go back to piling on Kenny for not knowing Dunn & Peavy would be busts when it was so painfully obvious to all astute fans from the very get-go, and also for not selling high on Rios after last season when he could have dumped the whole contract and picked up a piece or two as well.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 27, 2011 -> 01:03 AM) Is this the most ironic thing ever written? cst_Cowley cst_Cowley Good to see the Trib's Vanilla Ice columnist wrote his column with KW's hand up his puppet ass. He mad.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 14, 2011 -> 08:29 PM) It's not a lump sum payment. Anyway, it's not going to happen. Benching Dunn is worse than releasing him. He should play every game from here on out. Or not. Dunn's lack of confidence should be evident in the batting cage. If he's starting and stopping his swing on an 85mph straight fastball in BP then it's pretty clear he doesn't belong in the game. Dunn needs to prove in ST he's a major league player or else he needs to be in Charlotte/released/whatever. The reality is this: Dunn makes $14M next year, but the rest of the team combined will likely make at least $86M next year. League minimum should still be less than $500K. If Dunn in 2012 is as abysmal as he's been this year - and again this should be readily apparent in BP, you shouldn't need to see him against live MLB pitching to know where he is at mentally - then the decision on Dunn is not a very difficult one to make. The choice is to either let a $14M bad investment weigh down another, say, $86M investment, or spend the extra $500K and look to recoup some of that loss through a better ballclub. Dunn's money is gone for good, and unlike Rios who can actually put the bat on the ball and play the field, Dunn without confidence is just playing 24-vs.-26 baseball. His situation is unprecedented so we can't really compare this to a Linebrink or something.

If there's not going to be a strict slotting system then there needs to at least be a luxury tax of some sort imposed on teams who spend, spend, spend on amateur players both in the Rule-4 and internationally. I don't know how such a system would work, but a team like the Red Sox should be forced to play by the same rules. If there is no max slot per round or whatever, there should at least be a max total budget allowed for all the amateur signings combined, and the system should go based on record. For example, you finish 25-30th in the league the previous season and you get to spend up to the max, but if you finish with a top-5 record in baseball then you get the tiniest budget possible. And any team that goes over pays dollar-for-dollar to the rest of the league. Or maybe do something similar with picks instead of money.

I hate TLR. Might as well bring in Bobby Jenks, at least he can entertain the players with his cool fire lighting tricks when he's drunk off his ass mid-road trip.

QUOTE (sin city sox fan @ Aug 7, 2011 -> 08:13 PM) And when they went 32-21 earlier this season, I don't think they played as fundamentally sound as they did this week. They went into a place they always struggle at and kicked some Twinkies ass three days in a row. I'm not sure how it did...but I think Ozzie has really inspired this team and its ready to go on a roll the rest of the way! I'm not sure Ozzie can do anything at this point... I think perhaps the players have inspired themselves. Let's get back the real Alex Rios and the real Jake Peavy and then we'll take this thing, even if Dunn stays in the s***ter the rest of the year. And I know the Twins are terrible, but it doesn't matter how good/bad they are, we always fold up when we play them. This sweep means something. This is important.

I'm in LETS WIN THIS THING!!!! GO SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DEATH TO THE HATERS AND NONBELIEVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Aug 3, 2011 -> 05:53 PM) An expensive underachieving team. The underachieving part is where Ozzie and his staff come in. Thank you.

Yeah it is pretty ridiculous at this point that Kenny is sitting back watching Ozzie & his staff sink the ship. Enough is enough. And right now I don't care what Walker is or is not doing. Skiles was a good coach but the players had enough and stopped playing for him, and maybe the same thing is happening with Ozzie and his whole staff. I also find it especially difficult to blame Rios or Dunn for being lazy asses after the latest Oney gate. Between Ozzie's kids, the KW-Ozzie marriage from hell, etc, there's no reason for the players to give a s*** anymore. I mean, if the players are supposed to be following the examples set by their GM, manager, and coaching staff, then they're doing a fantastic job sleepwalking through the day and showing up just for the paycheck. I would like to see KW clean house right now and be the GM he is supposed to be. I definitely still believe that he can be one of the best GMs in the league IF he does things his way. But if he is so intent on keeping things they are, to the point of wasting the rest of this season, then I want no part of him. This division is so abysmal that even now a reinvigorated Sox team can make a run, or if not, at least change the clubhouse atmosphere so you don't bring up the kids in this environment.

Hey Oney, In case you are reading this, I am your biggest fan. However, I must bring it to your attention that I ran into Sergio Santos about three weeks ago at a steakhouse and we got talking, and he said you were a b****. I was appalled by that, and told him you were just a little misunderstood, but he said you were a something-something-something and he used both the "p" word and the other "f" word. I just wanted to let you know that. I think it's mean to talk about somebody behind his back like that. You should tweet that HIS wife looks like a dog, that'd be really funny. Thanks, KHP your biggest fan PS I hope you never leave the city

Adult fans who use their children as excuses to pump up business at their ebay stores are despicable wastes of the energy they consume. As far as Alex goes, the talent is there and it's more than Adam Dunn has. There' definitely the chance of a rebound for him, and a chance to become much better than he has been in several years. There's also no reason to be pessimistic about it since it can't really get worse from here. He's owed less money tomorrow than he is today, and he's not going to be any less of a threat in August than he has been in July. But for anything good to happen for him, a lot has to go right, and it will likely have to start with a new hitting coach and a new manager. With Dunn it's just mental I think, but same thing. If he's going to get better it'll have to be the result of a new environment around him. Time to start canning some coaches. Coop is the only one we definitely want to keep, although Cox's enthusiasm may ease the transition. Other than that, a total housecleaning is in order. And who knows, maybe we could make a small run then?

Just fire Ozzie already. Enough of this s***. If he doesn't want to shut his kid's mouth then enough with him. We certainly can't get any worse than we are right now.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 31, 2011 -> 11:36 PM) "(Dunn's) a good guy, a very, very good guy. He's going through a tremendous slump," Thomas said. "He's never seen anything like this. No one else has. He's going to come out of it. "I told him the other day, 'It's OK to punch in a single every now and then. If they want to shift on you, punch the ball through the shortstop. There's nothing wrong with it.' " And Rios, who played with Thomas in Toronto? "Right now, he's fighting himself," Thomas said. "I would change that stance. We talked about it the other day. There's nothing wrong with going in the cage and messing around with it." So is there a hitting coach career in Thomas' future? "We'll see. One of these years ... you never know," he said. Wonder how Walker feels about this? I remember when they got Rios in 2009, Walker was very clear they weren't going to try anything to change him in mid-season...that the whole focus was going to be on the offseason and spring training 2010. He seems so wedded to that awful stance, but the hand position/s, stepping into the bucket, pulling his head, UGH. With that frame, he should be generating big-time power and yet now he's nothing more than a more inept version of Brian Anderson offensively with an even surlier attitude and sense of self-worth. Maybe that's what happens to anyone who thinks he deserves $12.5 million per season just for merely showing up to work each day. www.chicagotribune.com/sports One of the first things I thought when we got Rios was how JD benefited from Thomas' advice and became a HR hitter here. Yeah, the Big Hurt should be our hitting coach right now. I'd fully jump on the Fire Greg Walker bandwagon AND the Fire Ozzie bandwagon if I knew Frank was an option. You know he'd have Walt Hriniak assisting him in some capacity, and he had the job before, so it's not like Frank would be totally on his own.