MexSoxFan#1

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:53 PM) I am sure it is a waste of time, because I can acknowledge that the game has changed in the last twenty years. For the worse, honestly. I would take Larry Bird from mid 1980s over 99% of NBA players today.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:57 PM) Michael Jordan played 10 years ago, at nearly 40, and had 40 point games against teams like the Suns and the Nets. Being guarded by guys like Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd. Two guys that were guarding Dwayne Wade in the finals last year WAYYYY past their prime. MJ way past his prime also played against Kobe and did just fine...Kobe f***ing Bryant.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:48 PM) Honestly, pretty much everything except dunks and probably defense. OMG

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:34 PM) If you gave MJ a relative skill level to today that is one thing, but taking 1990 MJ and putting him into today's game, he wouldn't be nearly as good. Players are bigger, stronger, and faster than they were 20 years ago. I get the rule changes, but there are guys in the game today who can stay in front of players like that. Defenders like Luol Deng didn't also exist 20 years ago. Ever heard of Micheal Cooper, Steve Smith, Gerald Wilkins... Deng, as good as he is, is not as good a defender as Pippen, not even close, Pip dominated games with his D, Deng isn't on that level. 1988 Jordan would crap on the NBA today just based on the fact you can't use your forearm to slow him down, you can't thug him (Celtics, Pistons, Knicks) without picking up a flagrant foul (FF didn't even exsist until the early 90s). Tell me, who do you think can stay in front of prime MJ, I need a laugh.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:21 PM) No it isn't, it is absolutely true. I've gotten into heated debates about this in another forum, don't want to get into it here but it's true players are more athletic today, but the game has become more perrimeter friendly, no hand-checking, beating up a player going to the hole was part of the game in MJ's era, today you breathe on someone and it's a foull and there is a complete lack of quality big men proctecting the paint...MJ would beast in this era. I will add that there are alot of weak teams nowadays, I don't remember the 90s having so many crappy teams. Athleticism is up, fundamentals and skills have gone down.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:47 PM) And if he wasn't able to dribble or shoot the way he's able to he wouldn't be dominating like he is now either. Obviously his size and athleticism help him tremendously, but if you think that there's an equal amount importance when comparing the physicality of a basketball player to an NFL running back, I don't know what to say. Actually, that's not what I'm saying. My original point is that we shouldn't disrespect past players based on the assumption that they would be garbage today, I understand that the game is different today, players are bigger and faster, sports medicine, etc., let's just compare them to what they did in their era. That's all.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) It proves that basketball is different than football. I mean that football is a tad bit more physical than basketball, so I don't really know how you make that comparison. If NBA players had to tackle lebron (a 6-8 260 pound monster), then sure I could see it. There are a decent amount of skills involved in playing basketball that can cause a physically dominant player to have problems. Playing running back is just a LITTLE different. If LBJ was 6'4 235, he wouldn't be dominating like he is now, he creates a match up nightmare with his quickness, strenght and SIZE.

QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) Lebron is physically superior to everyone today. I don't get what this proves. If LBJ doesn't get it done this year, he should legally change his name to LeFraud, he complained he had no help in Cleveland, he now has a top 5 team mate and an All-Star foward, no excuses now Bronsy.

QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 01:57 PM) I really hate the argument that because x player played in a past era, and if you stick them in today's era, they would be a scrub.If that's the case, why have a HOF for players before, say 1980... Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, Oscar Robertson and Dick Butkus suck!!! Sweetness, you barely made the grade...SMH. To clarify, the last two sentences were sarcastic.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) You seem to not understand. You can only grade players on who they play against. Those arguments are all silly. You simply cannot compare players across eras. Competition breeds talent. The game has evolved. Yes, if you stuck Bill Russell in a time machine, transported him to last night's Bulls/Celtics games and said "go" he'd be f***ed. He wasn't privy to the sports medicine and training of the day, and certainly to the speed of the game. If you cloned a baby Bill Russell and let that little science experiment grow up in today's world, competing against better and more frequent talent day in and day out, playing in college, then the NBA, then he COULD dominate. However, there's no guarantee that everything goes right. Seriously, there are SO MANY VARIABLES that go into that discussion. The only discussion worth having is "did he rise above the competition in his era". In the case of Hall of Famers, that most certainly will be the case. I agree with you, my beef is with those that say Russell sucks because he would do nothing today. In 20 years they'll be saying that about Jordan, there are basketball forums I go to already arguing that, saying he didn't face the kind of athleticism and size in today's NBA...that's bull. There are no time machines, like you said, let's compare them on how they played in their era. IMO, Russell, Wilt, West SHOULD be included in the GOAT list, behind MJ of course

I really hate the argument that because x player played in a past era, and if you stick them in today's era, they would be a scrub.If that's the case, why have a HOF for players before, say 1980... Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, Oscar Robertson and Dick Butkus suck!!! Sweetness, you barely made the grade...SMH.

One of the biggest arguments against Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell getting no respect by some basketball fans is the notion that they played against essentially midgets...I found this at another forum and I was surprised at how tall players were back then, these players played in the 61-62 NBA season. Pure Guards (Let's call them the Point Guards: Bob Cousy G 6-1 K.C. Jones G 6-1 Gary Phillips G 6-3 Al Attles G 6-0 York Larese G 6-4 Guy Rodgers G 6-0 Al Bianchi G 6-3 Larry Costello G 6-1 Paul Neumann G 6-1 George Blaney G 6-1 Donnie Butcher G 6-2 Al Butler G 6-2 Richie Guerin G 6-4 Whitey Martin G 6-2 Sam Stith G 6-2 Hot Rod Hundley G 6-4 Bob McNeill G 6-1 Bobby Smith G 6-4 Jerry West G 6-2 Bucky Bockhorn G 6-4 Adrian Smith G 6-1 Dave Zeller G 6-1 Johnny Egan G 5-11 Willie Jones G 6-3 Chuck Noble G 6-4 Don Ohl G 6-3 Gene Shue G 6-2 Jimmy Darrow G 5-10 Dick Eichhorst G 6-3 Vern Hatton G 6-3 Cleo Hill G 6-1 Johnny McCarthy G 6-1 Lenny Wilkens G 6-1 Howie Carl G 5-9 Ralph Davis G 6-4 York Larese G 6-4 Slick Leonard G 6-3 1961-62 Season, 37 active, avg = 6-1.89" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 93) avg = 6-1.02" (Point guards of that season averaged over 3/4 of an inch taller than modern point guards of 1989-present) Guard/Forward swingmen (Let's call them the Shooting Guards): Carl Braun G-F 6-5 Sam Jones G-F 6-4 Frank Ramsey F-G 6-3 Paul Arizin F-G 6-4 Ed Conlin F-G 6-5 Tom Gola G-F 6-6 Hal Greer G-F 6-2 Bill Smith G-F 6-5 Frank Selvy G-F 6-3 Oscar Robertson G-F 6-5 Jack Twyman F-G 6-6 George Lee F-G 6-4 Jackie Moreland F-G 6-7 Al Ferrari G-F 6-4 Si Green G-F 6-2 Cliff Hagan F-G 6-4 Fred LaCour G-F 6-5 Bob Sims G-F 6-5 Andy Johnson F-G 6-5 Jack Turner G-F 6-5 1961-62 Season, 20 active, avg = 6-4.45" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 90) avg = 6-3.76" (Shooting guards of that season average over half an inch taller than shooting guards of 1989-present) Pure Forwards (Let's call them the Small Forwards): Gene Guarilia F 6-5 Jim Loscutoff F 6-5 Tom Sanders F 6-6 Ted Luckenbill F 6-6 Tom Meschery F 6-6 Frank Radovich F 6-8 Dave Gambee F 6-6 Joe Roberts F 6-6 Chuck Osborne F 6-6 Lee Shaffer F 6-7 Dave Budd F 6-6 Ed Burton F 6-6 Doug Kistler F 6-9 Elgin Baylor F 6-5 Tom Hawkins F 6-5 Bob Boozer F 6-8 Joe Buckhalter F 6-7 Bob Wiesenhahn F 6-4 Bailey Howell F 6-7 Shellie McMillon F 6-5 S. Arceneaux F 6-4 Horace Walker F 6-3 Barney Cable F 6-7 Ron Horn F 6-7 George Bon S. F 6-8 1961-62 Season, 25 active, avg = 6-6.08" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 91) avg = 6-6.40" (The average small forward height of that season is only 1/3rd of an inch less than the average small forwards drafted between 1989-present) Forward/Centers (Let's call them the Power Forwards): Tom Heinsohn F-C 6-7 Joe Ruklick F-C 6-9 Joe Graboski F-C 6-7 Red Kerr C-F 6-9 Dolph Schayes F-C 6-7 C. Buckner F-C 6-9 Johnny Green F-C 6-5 Phil Jordon C-F 6-10 Willie Naulls F-C 6-6 Howie Jolliff F-C 6-7 Jim Krebs C-F 6-8 Rudy LaRusso F-C 6-7 Wayne Embry C-F 6-8 Hub Reed C-F 6-9 Bob Ferry C-F 6-8 Ray Scott F-C 6-9 Larry Foust C-F 6-9 Clyde Lovellette C-F 6-9 Bob Pettit F-C 6-9 W. Sauldsberry F-C 6-7 Archie Dees F-C 6-8 Joe Graboski F-C 6-7 Dave Piontek F-C 6-6 Charlie Tyra C-F 6-8 1961-62 Season, 24 active, avg = 6-7.83" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 127) avg = 6-7.95" (The power forwards average height that season is negligible in comparison with all modern power forwards from 1989-present... less than 1/8th of an inch) Players strictly listed as Centers: Bill Russell C 6-9 (1/2) Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 (1/16) Swede Halbrook C 7-3 Darrall Imhoff C 6-10 Ray Felix C 6-11 Wayne Yates C 6-8 Bevo Nordmann C 6-10 Walter Dukes C 7-0 Walt Bellamy C 6-11 1961-1962 Season, 9 active, avg = 6-11.06" (6-10.81" excluding Wilt) 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 67) avg = 6-10.44" (Centers of that season averaged over 1/4 of an inch taller than modern centers, and that is if we exclude Wilt - the difference is more than 1/2 an inch if we included him) Players get divided this way because in 61-62 there were only 3 recognized positions. G, F, C - and guys that would swing between basically had identical team roles to "SG, PF". www.basketball-reference.com has done an excellent job at indicating the players that were pulling double-duties between 2 positions. For players height...http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=

QUOTE (chw42 @ Feb 16, 2012 -> 11:01 PM) I'm also in the replace Lucas with James camp. I approve this messege.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 16, 2012 -> 09:19 PM) Mike James is energizing the team. Running pick and roll with Booz. Booz is beasting. I wish Rose would work on the PnR with Booz, DWill and Booz were a great PnR duo.

Booz with some nice interior passing. We got this one.

I found this stat just unbelievable... Since the Net game, the Knicks shooting % WITH Lin on the floor 64% WITHOUT Lin on the floor 38%.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 16, 2012 -> 04:18 PM) Damn, just thinking about Dantoni with LeBron. They might average 120 a game. and give up 121

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 16, 2012 -> 09:35 AM) It's impossible not to like Doc Rivers. Thanks for posting that article. Liked him when he was a Hawks player, hated him as a Knick, like him again.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 15, 2012 -> 08:03 PM) Michael Jordan drafted Kwame Brown and college basketball standout Adam Morrison. I don't care what past greats have to say. Jordan as a player, best ever, as a talent evaluator, terrible...Jerry West on the other hand, was the architect of some of the NBA's greatest teams.He knows talent. West thinks Lin can ball, I'll take his word over yours all day, every day and on Sunday.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 15, 2012 -> 07:09 PM) Maybe 2k5 and the others were right. The NBA is garbage. How is this non-athletic, no-skilled, 1970's ball-handling style f*** face doing this? This is like the "great" Bob Cousy in his heyday coming into today's game and dominating. Shame on the nba for allowing this nonsense. Jerry West disagrees with...I'll take his player evaluation over yours, no offense.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 15, 2012 -> 02:32 PM) Yes. But the overhype is getting way to ridiculous. It is, but people love an underdog story and his race also factors in it, believe me, David Stern and the NBA are loving it.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 15, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) I just want to see Lin face a real challenge when he isn't confident in himself. Right now he's balling by oozing confidence and facing crappy teams. The people he beat for most points in starts all started as rookies and faced better competition most likely (there are 3-4 teams that could qualify for "worst ever" in the Bobcats, Wizards, Nets, and Raptors). He's had a year to work with NBA staff and study players and the league has both great (Bulls, Heat, 76ers) and terrible basketball right now due to the lockout. What Lin is doing is a amazing, but he's not better than Shaq/AI/MJ as that stupid graphic likes to imply. Once he plays the Heat, Bulls, or 76ers he'll come back to Earth. Also, that stat is misleading because it's "since the ABA/NBA merger." Wilts first 5: 43 points 36 points 41 points 30 points 32 points Shaq had better first 5 games, just not points: 12pts, 18 reb, 3 blocks 22 points, 15 reb, 4 blocks 35 points, 13 reb, 3 blocks 31 points, 21 reb, 4 blocks 29 points, 15 reb, 3 blocks Then the next 2 games... 29 pts, 19 reb, 3 blocks 29 pts, 16 reb, 3 blocks Anybody who thinks Lin is in the category of a Wilt or Shaq is Linsane (lol), but what he has done is amazing, I know he has faced crappy teams, though he did drop 38 on LA and I wouldn't call them crap.Let's not pretend the crappy teams have a bunch of worthless scrubs, most players who play in the NBA were All-Americans and NCAA division I players, first or second round draftees, etc. I highly doubt you can get any D Leaguer, insert him against the Wizards and see him go off, the NBA is a top level talent league, the Wizards could beat any top NCAA team. Do I think Lin will be a top tier PG?No, can Lin be a solid PG that gives you 12-14/7 per night in the right system?So far that looks like that is possible, he's had TO issues but that's understandable, he's practically a rookie, handles the ball a lot and still hasn't gelled with his team mates.He needs to practice on his left hand but he has shown nice court vision and a high basketball IQ, and he's fearless... He'll have a career in the NBA, that much is clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Bl3GRdULQ...be_gdata_player Reporter "Kobe, do you think you can give Jeremy Lin any suggestions for his future?" Kobe "I'm not giving no damn suggestions, he only got 40 points against us, he's fine."

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Feb 14, 2012 -> 08:47 PM) Hes from Taiwan, not Japan or China. Wrong, he's from Palo Alto, CA...he's American.