MexSoxFan#1

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 05:13 PM) Oh my god. I wouldn't wish a Bob Cousy video on my worst enemy. Don't do that to Mex. He was annoying as the color commentator on Celics (that's how he would pronounce Celtics) tv broadcasts.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 05:06 PM) He's abandoned the thread due to shame and humiliation. He said almost every team had a defender like Pippen in today's NBA, honestly I can't think of one, not even LBJ, he got smoked by Terry in the Finals and couldn't lock him down even after Terry told LBJ he couldn't guard him...Pippen would've chased Terry from pro basketball.

QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 05:00 PM) Im about as far from a Jordan fanboy as youll find in the Bulls fan base but I dont see how someone in their right mind could think Jordan wouldnt be great in todays NBA. Sure there are better athletes now then there were in the early 90's but that doesnt take away from Jordans athleticism. Jordan had a virtually unguardable fade away, and that was when defenders could get away with a lot more. He would be able to create his own shots at will with the new rules and would be on the free throw line all night. Players today don't only jump, they hover, MJ's fader would be blocked easily. /green text

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 04:57 PM) Stop it. OK, I won't defend Cousy, all I know about him is the reputation, never actually seen a video of him.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 04:41 PM) And in todays game, his length and quickness would be nothing special. Most teams have a guy with those type of dimensions (though probably better built) and quickness. SS2k5, I would love to see you list 5 current NBA players who are on Pippen's level defensively.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 04:44 PM) This all started with Bill Russell/Wilt. Wilt would be a beast. This is true. He translates to any era. Guys like Cousy and Russell? I'm not even sure they could play in the college game, let alone the NBA. And that's real sad considering how terrible a product college basketball has become. Isn't Nash an unathletic white guy like Cousy?

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 04:32 PM) Did somebody just imply that Bill Russell could play in today's NBA? That's blasphemy and preposterous. What's next? That fat, out of shape, porker Babe Ruth would rule the game of baseball like he did when entire teams were hitting 20 HRs and pitchers topped out at a 2006-Freddy Garcia like 86 MPH on their FB? Bill Russell played when there was no athleticism, everybody, even point guards, dribbled with only their strong hand, everybody was built like Wite, everybody shot in the low 40's percentage wise, and everybody played at a clown pace. Bill Russell is not even as good as Sabonis. Now there's always room for interpretation. You've got some guys who were good for their time. Then you've got Wilt, Magic, Michael, Shaq and LeBron. They'd be good ANY time. But just stop with Bill Russell. I can't take it anymore. I didn't imply that Russell could dominate today, I just said we shouldn't disregard what he did because he played in a different era...basically respect what he did in his time, that's all. I know you don't like Russell and I just find that funny.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 04:28 PM) Pippen benefited as much from the clutch, grab, and physical defense of the 80s and 90s as anyone did. You can't say that there is no defense today, then bring up guys who benefited from it. LeBron should be MJ today, because he has the kind of talent gap that MJ had to the rest of the game back in his day. LeBron alone should be evidence of how much the NBA has improved since Mike's day, but of course LeBron doesn't care enough to get to that level. Dude, just stop, Pippen dominated with his length and quickness, don't confuse him with Anthony Mason. Pippen made All Defensive first team from '92-'99, when the hand check rule was already implemented.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 04:19 PM) Just because you're a dinosaur doesn't mean everyone else is stupid. I turn 29 next week. I've been married for 5+ years. I have a dick. I grew up with 90s NBA. I consumed it. I was addicted to it. I do enjoy the fact that your argument is so lame that you've decided to drop the "you weren't there" argument on someone who very much was. "I was there", I watched prime Magic, Bird, MJ and they would have no trouble in today's NBA.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:53 PM) I am sure it is a waste of time, because I can acknowledge that the game has changed in the last twenty years. For the worse, honestly. I would take Larry Bird from mid 1980s over 99% of NBA players today.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:57 PM) Michael Jordan played 10 years ago, at nearly 40, and had 40 point games against teams like the Suns and the Nets. Being guarded by guys like Shawn Marion and Jason Kidd. Two guys that were guarding Dwayne Wade in the finals last year WAYYYY past their prime. MJ way past his prime also played against Kobe and did just fine...Kobe f***ing Bryant.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:48 PM) Honestly, pretty much everything except dunks and probably defense. OMG

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:34 PM) If you gave MJ a relative skill level to today that is one thing, but taking 1990 MJ and putting him into today's game, he wouldn't be nearly as good. Players are bigger, stronger, and faster than they were 20 years ago. I get the rule changes, but there are guys in the game today who can stay in front of players like that. Defenders like Luol Deng didn't also exist 20 years ago. Ever heard of Micheal Cooper, Steve Smith, Gerald Wilkins... Deng, as good as he is, is not as good a defender as Pippen, not even close, Pip dominated games with his D, Deng isn't on that level. 1988 Jordan would crap on the NBA today just based on the fact you can't use your forearm to slow him down, you can't thug him (Celtics, Pistons, Knicks) without picking up a flagrant foul (FF didn't even exsist until the early 90s). Tell me, who do you think can stay in front of prime MJ, I need a laugh.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 03:21 PM) No it isn't, it is absolutely true. I've gotten into heated debates about this in another forum, don't want to get into it here but it's true players are more athletic today, but the game has become more perrimeter friendly, no hand-checking, beating up a player going to the hole was part of the game in MJ's era, today you breathe on someone and it's a foull and there is a complete lack of quality big men proctecting the paint...MJ would beast in this era. I will add that there are alot of weak teams nowadays, I don't remember the 90s having so many crappy teams. Athleticism is up, fundamentals and skills have gone down.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:47 PM) And if he wasn't able to dribble or shoot the way he's able to he wouldn't be dominating like he is now either. Obviously his size and athleticism help him tremendously, but if you think that there's an equal amount importance when comparing the physicality of a basketball player to an NFL running back, I don't know what to say. Actually, that's not what I'm saying. My original point is that we shouldn't disrespect past players based on the assumption that they would be garbage today, I understand that the game is different today, players are bigger and faster, sports medicine, etc., let's just compare them to what they did in their era. That's all.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:27 PM) It proves that basketball is different than football. I mean that football is a tad bit more physical than basketball, so I don't really know how you make that comparison. If NBA players had to tackle lebron (a 6-8 260 pound monster), then sure I could see it. There are a decent amount of skills involved in playing basketball that can cause a physically dominant player to have problems. Playing running back is just a LITTLE different. If LBJ was 6'4 235, he wouldn't be dominating like he is now, he creates a match up nightmare with his quickness, strenght and SIZE.

QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:21 PM) Lebron is physically superior to everyone today. I don't get what this proves. If LBJ doesn't get it done this year, he should legally change his name to LeFraud, he complained he had no help in Cleveland, he now has a top 5 team mate and an All-Star foward, no excuses now Bronsy.

QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 01:57 PM) I really hate the argument that because x player played in a past era, and if you stick them in today's era, they would be a scrub.If that's the case, why have a HOF for players before, say 1980... Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, Oscar Robertson and Dick Butkus suck!!! Sweetness, you barely made the grade...SMH. To clarify, the last two sentences were sarcastic.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Feb 17, 2012 -> 02:04 PM) You seem to not understand. You can only grade players on who they play against. Those arguments are all silly. You simply cannot compare players across eras. Competition breeds talent. The game has evolved. Yes, if you stuck Bill Russell in a time machine, transported him to last night's Bulls/Celtics games and said "go" he'd be f***ed. He wasn't privy to the sports medicine and training of the day, and certainly to the speed of the game. If you cloned a baby Bill Russell and let that little science experiment grow up in today's world, competing against better and more frequent talent day in and day out, playing in college, then the NBA, then he COULD dominate. However, there's no guarantee that everything goes right. Seriously, there are SO MANY VARIABLES that go into that discussion. The only discussion worth having is "did he rise above the competition in his era". In the case of Hall of Famers, that most certainly will be the case. I agree with you, my beef is with those that say Russell sucks because he would do nothing today. In 20 years they'll be saying that about Jordan, there are basketball forums I go to already arguing that, saying he didn't face the kind of athleticism and size in today's NBA...that's bull. There are no time machines, like you said, let's compare them on how they played in their era. IMO, Russell, Wilt, West SHOULD be included in the GOAT list, behind MJ of course

I really hate the argument that because x player played in a past era, and if you stick them in today's era, they would be a scrub.If that's the case, why have a HOF for players before, say 1980... Jackie Robinson, Jim Brown, Oscar Robertson and Dick Butkus suck!!! Sweetness, you barely made the grade...SMH.

One of the biggest arguments against Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell getting no respect by some basketball fans is the notion that they played against essentially midgets...I found this at another forum and I was surprised at how tall players were back then, these players played in the 61-62 NBA season. Pure Guards (Let's call them the Point Guards: Bob Cousy G 6-1 K.C. Jones G 6-1 Gary Phillips G 6-3 Al Attles G 6-0 York Larese G 6-4 Guy Rodgers G 6-0 Al Bianchi G 6-3 Larry Costello G 6-1 Paul Neumann G 6-1 George Blaney G 6-1 Donnie Butcher G 6-2 Al Butler G 6-2 Richie Guerin G 6-4 Whitey Martin G 6-2 Sam Stith G 6-2 Hot Rod Hundley G 6-4 Bob McNeill G 6-1 Bobby Smith G 6-4 Jerry West G 6-2 Bucky Bockhorn G 6-4 Adrian Smith G 6-1 Dave Zeller G 6-1 Johnny Egan G 5-11 Willie Jones G 6-3 Chuck Noble G 6-4 Don Ohl G 6-3 Gene Shue G 6-2 Jimmy Darrow G 5-10 Dick Eichhorst G 6-3 Vern Hatton G 6-3 Cleo Hill G 6-1 Johnny McCarthy G 6-1 Lenny Wilkens G 6-1 Howie Carl G 5-9 Ralph Davis G 6-4 York Larese G 6-4 Slick Leonard G 6-3 1961-62 Season, 37 active, avg = 6-1.89" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 93) avg = 6-1.02" (Point guards of that season averaged over 3/4 of an inch taller than modern point guards of 1989-present) Guard/Forward swingmen (Let's call them the Shooting Guards): Carl Braun G-F 6-5 Sam Jones G-F 6-4 Frank Ramsey F-G 6-3 Paul Arizin F-G 6-4 Ed Conlin F-G 6-5 Tom Gola G-F 6-6 Hal Greer G-F 6-2 Bill Smith G-F 6-5 Frank Selvy G-F 6-3 Oscar Robertson G-F 6-5 Jack Twyman F-G 6-6 George Lee F-G 6-4 Jackie Moreland F-G 6-7 Al Ferrari G-F 6-4 Si Green G-F 6-2 Cliff Hagan F-G 6-4 Fred LaCour G-F 6-5 Bob Sims G-F 6-5 Andy Johnson F-G 6-5 Jack Turner G-F 6-5 1961-62 Season, 20 active, avg = 6-4.45" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 90) avg = 6-3.76" (Shooting guards of that season average over half an inch taller than shooting guards of 1989-present) Pure Forwards (Let's call them the Small Forwards): Gene Guarilia F 6-5 Jim Loscutoff F 6-5 Tom Sanders F 6-6 Ted Luckenbill F 6-6 Tom Meschery F 6-6 Frank Radovich F 6-8 Dave Gambee F 6-6 Joe Roberts F 6-6 Chuck Osborne F 6-6 Lee Shaffer F 6-7 Dave Budd F 6-6 Ed Burton F 6-6 Doug Kistler F 6-9 Elgin Baylor F 6-5 Tom Hawkins F 6-5 Bob Boozer F 6-8 Joe Buckhalter F 6-7 Bob Wiesenhahn F 6-4 Bailey Howell F 6-7 Shellie McMillon F 6-5 S. Arceneaux F 6-4 Horace Walker F 6-3 Barney Cable F 6-7 Ron Horn F 6-7 George Bon S. F 6-8 1961-62 Season, 25 active, avg = 6-6.08" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 91) avg = 6-6.40" (The average small forward height of that season is only 1/3rd of an inch less than the average small forwards drafted between 1989-present) Forward/Centers (Let's call them the Power Forwards): Tom Heinsohn F-C 6-7 Joe Ruklick F-C 6-9 Joe Graboski F-C 6-7 Red Kerr C-F 6-9 Dolph Schayes F-C 6-7 C. Buckner F-C 6-9 Johnny Green F-C 6-5 Phil Jordon C-F 6-10 Willie Naulls F-C 6-6 Howie Jolliff F-C 6-7 Jim Krebs C-F 6-8 Rudy LaRusso F-C 6-7 Wayne Embry C-F 6-8 Hub Reed C-F 6-9 Bob Ferry C-F 6-8 Ray Scott F-C 6-9 Larry Foust C-F 6-9 Clyde Lovellette C-F 6-9 Bob Pettit F-C 6-9 W. Sauldsberry F-C 6-7 Archie Dees F-C 6-8 Joe Graboski F-C 6-7 Dave Piontek F-C 6-6 Charlie Tyra C-F 6-8 1961-62 Season, 24 active, avg = 6-7.83" 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 127) avg = 6-7.95" (The power forwards average height that season is negligible in comparison with all modern power forwards from 1989-present... less than 1/8th of an inch) Players strictly listed as Centers: Bill Russell C 6-9 (1/2) Wilt Chamberlain C 7-1 (1/16) Swede Halbrook C 7-3 Darrall Imhoff C 6-10 Ray Felix C 6-11 Wayne Yates C 6-8 Bevo Nordmann C 6-10 Walter Dukes C 7-0 Walt Bellamy C 6-11 1961-1962 Season, 9 active, avg = 6-11.06" (6-10.81" excluding Wilt) 1989-2011 NBA draft (sample size avail, 67) avg = 6-10.44" (Centers of that season averaged over 1/4 of an inch taller than modern centers, and that is if we exclude Wilt - the difference is more than 1/2 an inch if we included him) Players get divided this way because in 61-62 there were only 3 recognized positions. G, F, C - and guys that would swing between basically had identical team roles to "SG, PF". www.basketball-reference.com has done an excellent job at indicating the players that were pulling double-duties between 2 positions. For players height...http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-...raft=100&sort=

QUOTE (chw42 @ Feb 16, 2012 -> 11:01 PM) I'm also in the replace Lucas with James camp. I approve this messege.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Feb 16, 2012 -> 09:19 PM) Mike James is energizing the team. Running pick and roll with Booz. Booz is beasting. I wish Rose would work on the PnR with Booz, DWill and Booz were a great PnR duo.

Booz with some nice interior passing. We got this one.

I found this stat just unbelievable... Since the Net game, the Knicks shooting % WITH Lin on the floor 64% WITHOUT Lin on the floor 38%.