ozzfest

And since when is making the playoffs in the NBA a measure of success? I mean, 16 teams make the playoffs, it's not that hard, especially when one third of the league is tanking every year. Geez, I wish I could pull up the fire Jerry Angelo threads a few years back. You guys love GarPax an irrational amount. I mean, for those reading this that love GarPax, how many more years are you willing to give them?

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:29 PM) I don't even know how to analyze that list. But if I go back to Paxson's era I'd say it is Hawks and Bulls and than no one else is even close. Bears are probably 3rd (again, spanning Paxson's run...Cubs would probably rank last and Sox would rank 4th). Hawks AND Bulls? Are you kidding? The Bulls haven't accomplished anything since 1998. Since then, in 2011, their biggest accomplishment was under an MVP player who the FO got extremely lucky in winning the lottery with. You are lying to yourself if you don't see the Cubs having the second best FO in this town. Maybe even the best. Theo and Co. have built a sustainable CHAMPIONSHIP contender. That's how success should be measured.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:09 PM) There is so much 20/20 hindsight in a vacuum general managing here. Please. The bulls have plenty of assets. Boers and Bernstein are on now, call them and yell at them Who exactly are the Bulls assets? Other than Butler?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 01:05 PM) They could have traded Taj and Dunleavy if they really wanted to make room. Or they could have worked out a sign and trade. It still came down to Melo choosing that extra 30-40 million in guaranteed money. Damn GarPax for not convincing him otherwise! Look, if you follow the team annually you know that last year, regardless of Rose's ability to get back to MVP form, the players had had enough of Thibs. Not just the FO, but also the team. The team was relatively healthy against the Cavs and simply could not score points against a depleted Cavs roster. That's why Thibs was canned. It was time and every reasonable person could see that. The way they went about it was wrong, but in the end I could care less about that. Great, you're trading Noah. To who? Who's taking him and giving a good return? If you have a roster full of players that wouldn't fetch anything on the trade market (except for jimmy), doesn't your GM suck?

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:53 AM) Lol. Bears should be fifth and Bulls second. Do you have any idea that the Cubs are way closer to a championship than the Bulls are?

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...ing-up-momentum

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 11:25 AM) What excuse train? Outside of the Blackhawks, no other organization in Chicago has been even close to as successful as Paxson has been while running the Bulls. Yes, the White Sox got a ring and the Bears sniffed a superbowl but the Bulls have consistently been playoff contenders and were at one point legit title contenders and they have consistently found new assets while going through this extensive run. Have they failed to win the title and lure the biggest fish, yes, but I still objectively look at things and say they have been one of the best front offices in basketball. The best, no, but close to, and for that, I give them credit and give them the benefit of the doubt. It isn't easy to win a title and the fact that these guys hasn't shouldn't mean you can them and go another direction. They have been ripped consistently for one thing...the Thibs fiasco and deservingly so. Other than that, I don't see any reason to put them on blast. Front office rankings in Chicago (in terms of which teams have the best chance to win it all). Which is how a front office should be judged. 1) Blackhawks 2) Cubs 3) Bears 4) White Sox 5) Bulls

QUOTE (AustinIllini @ Jan 20, 2016 -> 09:06 AM) So quick to discard Hoiberg when the team he's coaching lacks any Hoiberg type players. I keep hearing this narrative... 1) Whose responsibility is it that there aren't any "Hoiberg type" players on the roster? 2) Who in the NBA IS a Hoiberg type player? 3) Didn't management tell us this was a championship roster with the coach (Thibs) standing in the way?

Some good reading from the most credible NBA source there is. The Bulls management is a clown show. You all will realize this sooner or later. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-bulls-man...-053816326.html

QUOTE (AustinIllini @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:44 PM) The only thing Paxson and Forman are guilty of is not having LeBron James. Period. Only one team in the league gets LeBron. The Bulls didn't. That sucks. Last I checked LeBron didn't win last year. He's actually only won twice in over twelve years in the league. So what the heck are you talking about?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:08 PM) if you would have read all of what nitetrain posted instead of glossing over the things you disagreed with, you would have seen a lot of the good things that they have done Are you nitetrain's personal spokesperson?

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 01:02 PM) After reading that I still say the same thing: you guys are crazy if you really expect the Bulls or ANY sports franchise to compete for TITLES, which is what you two are b****ing about, when your star players gets hurt for basically 4 seasons in a row. You're complaining that the Bulls didn't so SOMETHING when they've done quite a lot. Some of the moves worked out, some of them didn't. You can't expect GM's to be perfect. The behind the scene stuff, fighting with VDN, the way they let Thibs go, etc. has been embarassing. But from a strict basketball perspective, I think they've done a pretty fantastic job making this team a playoff mainstay and an ECF contender on an annual basis given that 20% of their starting 5 can't be counted on to play consistently and hasn't for about 5 years now. "They've done quite a lot"???? Are you kidding me? What have they done exactly?

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Jan 19, 2016 -> 03:40 AM) It's late, even on the West Coast, but I feel like having to reply to this thread. First thing I'll say is that I agree. GarPax has had 13 years to field a championship caliber team, only one year did they. And it actually happened on accident if you think about it. This is going to be a long winded post, so I summarized it in the first two sentences. Here's my defense for this thread(though I didn't make it): Lovie and Jerry Angelo had 8 years to turn the Bears into championship contenders. At the very least, they made it to the Super Bowl in one of those years and had a good shot at winning that game in a tougher sport. They also had made the playoffs before and Lovie's final year, he went 10-6 with the team taking a nosedive the year he left. Usually that indicates good coaching. Bears and their fans didn't believe so. White Sox won a WS in 2005, but we all want KW fired. Cubs have fired different guys since Paxson stepped in for the Bulls trying to get the job done. Fact is, the Chicago Fire FO has received more criticism and calls for firings than GarPax has. Stating the opposite is indefensible. Local media has all criticized the other teams in this town, but the Bulls have always gotten a free pass. Paxson had actually a good drafting record when he first started. He hit on Kirk, Gordon, Deng and Duhon was a good backup PG. 4 players with his first 4 tries, he hit on. His strategy on the trade market and acquiring assets was working. He dumped Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry at the right time and for as good as a package as you can get when teams know you don't want those players anymore. Even with trading those guys, through his drafting, he turned the Bulls into a playoff team which this city starved for. They had a good coach in Skiles who demanded effort and the Baby Bulls were on the rise. He trades Tyson Chandler so he can free up space for Ben Wallace. They slightly overpaid at the time, but it was a solid move as he felt this would help the Bulls get to the next level (sidenote, I think this is where Paxson turned into a bad GM/VP). It actually works out despite squabbles with Big Ben who we knew loved to wear his fro out and bandanas in Detroit, and who Paxson suddenly tried to neuter with the help of Skiles. In the end, Bulls lay waste of the defending champs, make it to the 2nd round, and play Detroit tough(just weren't ready). We all thought they were on the way. The following year, Ben's displeasure with the Bulls grows louder because he feels like he's being treated like a kid and not like the defending champ he is. His game tanks as a result as he just doesn't give an eff anymore. Chandler is revived in NO with Chris Paul and the Bulls have nothing to show from the Chandler deal as the best piece they got(JR Smith) was waived in 10 minutes because Paxson needed guys who wouldn't rock the boat and he was the type to let a players past shape his thoughts(whether right or wrong). All of this is even worse as the Bulls start off slow and Skiles bickered with the FO over an extension who they played hardball on for no reason. Skiles is fired during the Christmas holiday with a bad taste in his mouth. Wallace is dealt to Cleveland for a bag of balls as he's grown to be a malcontent at this point and the Bulls miss the playoffs horribly. To make matters worse, Gar Forman's first pick Tyrus Thomas doesn't develop as fast as they hoped while LaMarcus Aldridge is showing flashes of brilliance in Portland, but not enough to be the main storyline. Joakim Noah doesn't look like much either and ends up fighting with the coaching staff alot. Bulls luck into Derrick Rose as they had a less than 2% chance of winning the draft lottery. They win the #1 pick and draft him. Vinny Del Negro is hired as coach, though he had no previous coaching experience. This was Paxson's choice. The Bulls end up creeping into the playoffs and give us the greatest basketball playoff series ever. Rose makes rookie history in his first playoff game and the Bulls are excited about their past and current core meshing together. The team's leading scorer is not given a new deal as the front office preferred to not waste the money on him(here's where I started seeing Paxson's flaws as he let his leading scorer and his best SG since Jordan leave with no compensation and no plans to replace him while keeping Luol Deng who didn't fit under VDN). The team highlight, Paxson's last good trade, was actually an accident as well. Andres Nocioni who hadn't lived up to his contract, Michael Ruffin, Drew Gooden and Cedric Simmons are all traded as a cap dump for Brad Miller and John Salmons. Salmons played out of this world for the rest of the season, forming a great 1-2-3 punch with Rose and Gordon. Miller became a good mentor for Joakim Noah. Salmons is kept, but quickly discovered as a guy who just had a great half to a season and nothing more. Bulls get trounced by LeBron's Cavs. Bulls drafted Taj Gibson and James Johnson before the season. Johnson was another Forman pick. It is found out by Adrian Woj, that the Paxson got into a physical altercation with VDN over the handling of Joakim Noah's minutes when coming back from injury. Noah was to be on a minute's restriction, but played more minutes in a tight game in which VDN asked Noah if he would be willing to go in and Noah answered yes. Bulls hire Tom Thibodeau. He brings along Ron Adams who previously clashed with Joakim Noah, but who grows a strong bond with budding star, Derrick Rose. Bulls miss out on Joe Johnson, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwayne Wade. They sign JJ Redick to an offer sheet which is quickly matched by Orlando. They move onto Plan C and sign Carlos Boozer, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver and CJ Watson. They drafted Kevin Saraphin who is dealt with an aging Kirk Hinrich to WAS for cap space. With Thibs' system of effort everyday and freedom on offense while also making Luol Deng an integral part of the team, the Bulls shock the world and have a winning record against the Heatles. They lead the Eastern Conference in wins despite having Boozer and Noah miss large chunks of the season and Keith Bogans on their roster. Omer Asik shows he's a viable C in Thibs' rotation along with aging Kurt Thomas. Paxson's pickups worked out and they have the MVP. Bulls are bounced in the ECF in a close every game, but not close series (miami heat). Denver wants to deal Carmelo Anthony after he requests trade, but Bulls refuse to deal Joakim Noah in any deal. Melo eventually goes to NY. Bulls enter the 2010-2011 season as a true contender. They draft Jimmy Butler who is a relative unknown out of Marquette. They decide an aging and agitated Richard Hamilton is the answer at SG over options such as OJ Mayo, Courtney Lee, all-star level Caron Butler, and Jamal Crawford to name a few. Bulls start lockout shortened season where they left off, and that's winning. Nagging injuries get to the team's star in Derrick rose, but he returns for the playoffs and tears his ACL in Game 1. Bulls choke against the 8th seed and lose. Bulls draft Marquis Teague over the wishes of Tom Thibs and Ron Adams to draft Draymond Green. Bulls breakup the bench mob and deal Korver for a TPE they never used. This after letting go of Ronnie Brewer and CJ Watson. They sign Nate Robinson as roster filler, eventually cut ties with disgruntled Richard Hamilton, and sign Kirk Hinrich over OJ Mayo though Hinrich's best years being clearly behind him and the Bulls needing shooting. With all the injuries, Butler develops under Tom T's demand for effort. Bulls win an exciting series over the Nets with MVP candidate Joakim Noah and Nate Robinson leading the way and take a game from eventual champion Miami Heat despite being outnumbered. Bulls do not extend Ron Adams after him and Thibs struggle in a power play with Gar Forman. Thibs is upset with this, but still has backing of JR and VP John Paxson. Thibs also takes a year to sign extension deal. Bulls drafted Tony Snell who just isn't an NBA rotation player. Rumors come out about infighting by the FO with Thibs. Derrick Rose comes back after a year and a half absence and tries to play super fast. He tears his meniscus in about 10 games. Season is lost. Bulls make no deadline deals to obtain anyone which came after an offseason in which they let go of fan favorite, Nate Robinson. DJ Augustin does an admirable job off of the scrapheap. Bulls miss scoring for the 3rd year in a row and Paxson does nothing. Despite Rose missing most of the season again, Bulls continue to count on him being a championship level player. They draft Doug McDermott after trading Jusef Nurkic and Gary Harris and a 2nd rounder. Bulls try to woo Carmelo Anthony, but he decides to stay in NY over the Bulls. Pau Gasol signs with the Bulls citing Tom Thibodeau as the main reason along with Joakim Noah recruiting him. Front office feels the Bulls have enough to compete again. Bulls sign Aaron Brooks as a backup PG and continue to hope Rose becomes an MVP again. They have their best chance since 2010 with Rose healthy enough for the playoffs and Cleveland missing 1 part of their big 3. Bulls are up 2-1 after a Rose buzzer beater in Game 3. Bulls are about to go up 3-1, but LeBron hits a shot which changes complexion of series. Constant in-fighting between the coach and FO comes to a head. Players are sick of it, Bulls fire Thibs and hire Hoiberg. Bulls make no moves, other than drafting at their pick to draft Bobby Portis. This shows a sign of GarPax believing they had enough and Thibs being the scapegoat. Bulls begin 2015-16 no different than the previous year and in some ways worse under new coach and handpicked chosen boy, Fred Hoiberg. Butler, the team's new start, voices his displeasure with the head coach. Offense, which was supposed to be improved turns way worse, defense gets slightly better. Inefficiencies in Paxson's regime finally start to be talked about - lack of consolidating talent, holding onto assets too long, playing favorites with players, not making deadline deals, not being able to close a deal with a top player in FA, and never being able to acquire legit 2nd options on offense either via trade or FA. Bulls only good pick being Jimmy Butler who developed heavily under Thibs with McDermott and Mirotic showing they can be serviceable NBA players. Bulls have a logjam in the front court with Noah, Gasol, Mirotic, Gibson and Portis and still need help at the wing. Paxson refuses to deal any of his frontcourt players and Noah gets hurt while also being hurt about losing starting job. Portis shows signs of being as good if not better than Gibson, but he is not dealt for help either. Noah doesn't fit in Hoiberg's offense. Rose can't run Hoiberg's offense(or run at all at times). Rose is still injury prone after 5 years of showing he can't be depended on. GarPax is surprised and so are fans. Media and fans say, "you want us to try? how about when LeBron and Steph Curry retire". This post is very long, but I figured to give you insight on the good and bad of Paxson. In the end, his stubborness is what has costed the team and he's been a mid tier at best, if not lower tier(only held up by drafting which has gotten worse over the past 5 years) VP/GM. Backup PG is a revolving hole of Hinrich's corpse, some ETwan/DaQuan Cook/JamesOn Curry type of player and Aaron Brooks or CJ Watson. Bulls waited too long to deal Noah(should've been dealt at peak value after MVP type season), Deng and let go of Korver, Asik, and Gordon for nothing. Bulls under him (after 2007 season when they beat the heat in the playoffs) became very reactionary and they're pretty much asleep at the wheel until a coach does what he thinks is right or when it's turn to draft. FANTASTIC POST...AT LEAST SOMEONE GETS IT. Much of what I've been reading here is "welp, we don't have Lebron/Curry so it doesn't matter". Paxson sucks.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 12:11 PM) 1. No concrete evidence those two players would have got the deal done. But it fits into your "Bulls suck" narrative, so I understand why you included it. 2. That was an awful deal. No one is denying that, and it has been mentioned in this thread. They deserve criticism for that move. What else do you want? 3. What package was going to get that done? Please, enlighten us. You still have left out the Rose injuries in all of this, because it goes against your narrative. But, I won't stop you from your little crusade. You seem to enjoy the hate, so go nuts. I suggest you read this article tony. Here is some evidence. I can provide more evidence if you like. http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/laker...0223-story.html

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 07:33 PM) I am totally fine with criticism, and I think Gar and Pax deserve a good amount for some things. There have been some big misses, and I'm not a fan of their historic conservative approach. But if you are going to start a thread on it, I want actual moves they could have realistically made over the last 3 years to really change the fortune of this team, and finally take down LeBron. It has always rested on Rose, they had no choice but to pay him that money at the time, and now it's backfired in a huge way. You want actual moves? How about trading Luol Deng and Ben Gordon for Kobe Bryant? How about keeping Lamarcus Aldridge? How about keeping Ron Adams on the coaching staff? How about trading for Demar Derozan or Jamal Crawford in 2011 when they were desperate for a shot creator. How about trading for Demarcus Cousins earlier this year? Do you actually buy into the BS that the Bulls didn't make a SINGLE move this offseason. It's pathetic.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 17, 2016 -> 11:10 AM) You just invalidated everything you posted in this thread by pretending the Bulls didn't sign Pau Gasol. Pau Gasol was a big FA signing? Maybe for the pathetic Bulls... Gasol is 35 years old. How does Gasol help this team get to a championship? If an executive can't lure difference making players to a team, then that executive sucks. Also, aside from Jimmy Butler, who has GarPax drafted that impresses you so much? And don't say Taj Gibson. Gibson is replacement level talent. I bet you are a big McDermott fan, and you think Snell is good, and you think that Portis is the next KG. This is the problem with the Bulls. Bulls fans buy into the GarPax BS. I bet you didn't want them to trade Luol Deng for Kobe Bryant. I bet you didn't want the Bulls to trade Asik a couple years back as well.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:33 PM) Depends how good you are at drafting and development. And, with the salary cap, GM's are often handcuffed financially. If your gold standard is San Antonio, sure. Depends on one's expectations. Teams make trades and get creative when their capped out. Bulls fans are brainwashed to think you can't do anything. Golden State was capped out when they made a CREATIVE TRADE and did a sign and trade for eventual finals MVP Andre Iguodala. What's your response to that?

QUOTE (buhbuhburrrrlz @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:34 PM) it's a good analogy. Who is the threat to Cleveland in the EAST? CLE has LeBron, but they sucked before they made a TRADE last year for Mozgof, and also for JR Smith. They made something called a TRADE. Look at Paxson's trade history. It's a total joke.

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:32 PM) Not a good analogy. The Spurs, Warriors and Heat have won the past three years. There are multiple teams that could potentially win this year. When the Bulls had their run, they had virtually no threat at all. When they had MVP Rose in 2011. They sat on their hands at the deadline like they always do. They could have gotten a SG. Instead they were content with Bogans and Brewer. A total disaster.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:22 PM) At least the Bulls consistently make the playoffs. They're almost like the Atlanta Braves of the NBA Eastern Conference...and Rose's injuries are analagous to the White Sox losing Chris Sale and his effectiveness upon return declining. You can't expect to beat the 2nd best player in NBA history, superteams (Heat w/ James), the Warriors or Spurs without an MVP level Rose. Another way of putting it...being a Bulls' fan now is like being a Cavs fan when the Celtics, then Pistons, then Bulls were so good, although in general the Eastern is a LOT softer than back in those days. Not a good analogy. The Spurs, Warriors and Heat have won the past three years. There are multiple teams that could potentially win this year. When the Bulls had their run, they had virtually no threat at all.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:14 PM) Would the Bulls be better right now if they'd traded Butler as the key piece for someone like Kevin Love? If your biggest FA signings have been Ben Wallace and Carlos Boozer, you suck at your job.

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:02 PM) You made the thread. Since Rose has been dealing with injuries, what would you have liked to have seen them do? Fact or fiction: you listen to Boers and Bernstein?

QUOTE (Tony @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 06:02 PM) You made the thread. Since Rose has been dealing with injuries, what would you have liked to have seen them do? Easy. Don't trade Aldridge for a piece of sh** player. And they could have traded for Kobe Bryant, but didn't want to part with Luol Deng. The Bulls FO is clueless. They fall in love with their own players. I suggest reading this article. http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/laker...0223-story.html

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 16, 2016 -> 05:31 PM) Blind support and protection? In what world? There is very little pressure from the local media on Garpax. Jerry Angelo and Jim Hendry were roasted by the sun times, tribune, 670 and 1000. Anything you read written by Sam Smith, KC Johnson, Nick Friedell... Anything you hear from Dan Bernstein...They all say "pax tries his best". And there is this false narrative that they drafted well. What about Snell, Teague over draymond, Mirotic, McDermott, and trading away Lamarcus aldridge? What about firing Ron Adams? What about assaulting Vinny Del Negro? What about not wanting to trade for Kobe Bryant because they though Luol Deng was too valuable?

They went into the 2011 playoffs with Keith Bogans as their starting SG. They went into this season saying that this was a championship ready roster with the coach standing in the way (Thibs). This team sucks.