Flash Tizzle

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jul 25, 2006 -> 09:45 AM) I don't get it. Flash says our farm system sucks before we make any trades, then he whines about trading away our precious farm system when the trade is made. Lumsden was one of the few prospects I've supported for quite awhile.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 10:01 PM) This offense certainly could use a boost. The whole team is just going through the motions. All I know is that when your offense is struggling, and you face a team with a great bullpen, you need to manage with a greater since of urgency. Vazquez has now allowed 35 runs in 30 innings after 75 pitches. Our offense could use a boost, but I wouldn't consider trading for Soriano if it involves (which it certaintly would) McCarthy. Subtracting from pitching to improve our offense, which isn't the main concern, wouldn't be a move I'd endorse. Trading Garcia is likely more practical, since Vazquez carries a hefty price tag and was recently traded for. Don't believe Williams is willing to give up on him just yet. Why can't another team just make it easy on us and trade for Garcia?

Soriano discussions need to end, immediately. Our offense hasn't helped us, obviously, but inconsistent starting pitching will not carry our club to the playoffs. Besides Detroit losing and Minnesota forgetting how to throw a baseball, another team I'm rooting for these next several games is the Cubs. I'm hoping their pathetic ballclub continues hitting Mets pitching to perhaps create urgency in Minaya to deal for Garcia. Someone, PLEASE overpay for him Oh, and that one guy Santana is pitching tomorrow. I'm certain we can expect domination, and perhaps a 8.5 game deficit in the division; 1 in the wildcard. Well, this may have been a bit premature..... Points still remain.

Look what I found:

This is becoming utterly pathetic. I believe we should all come to the realization 7.5 games is quite the feat to overcome. If we're entering the playoffs, it's from the Wild Card; and it sure as hell won't occur with the starting rotation performing as it has been. Williams needs to shift his stance of not trading anyone on the current roster and unload Garcia. Receive a fair package (can't ask for too much, god forbid; he's not MacDougal), ease McCarthy into the rotation. I don't believe there's any question as this team currently stands it's not going anywhere. If trading Garcia and working McCarthy into the rotation doesn't work, well, what's occuring right now isn't doing much either. Have to try another strategy.

If we're coming back it's against Radke. I'm not confident with Minnesota's bullpen back him up. And Vazquez? Something definitely needs to be done. Whether that's a trade or limiting him to 5 innings, we can't continue to forsake victories so he can "figure it out."

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 06:28 PM) Everyone in baseball knows that our window is 2005-2007. When members imply such a window of opportuniy exists, it usually rests on our starting rotation. Lumsden, IMO, was pivotal to maintaining a reasonable turnover. Why is our window only two years? Does that mean after 2007 concludes the team is dismantled and rebuilding begins? I'd like for our window to extend far beyond two seasons. Even with an increased payroll, we're not going to outbid many teams for legitimate talent. Legitimate talent brings in ridiculous contracts, which I don't believe we're going to be a part of. Konerko's situation was unique; one I doubt others follow. A working system is key to sustained success. Inserting cheap roster players would only assist in alloting more money towards higher priced talent. It should be the first priority of any major league organization. There should be balance between holding onto prospects and letting them develop. With MacDougal, and what he's gone through with injuries, giving up Lumsden alone is excessive. You include Cortes and I'd expect more certainty about the return product. Factor in the inconsistent nature of healthy relief pitchers, and everyone should realize MacDougal is not worthy of what was given. Perhaps I'm subconsciously afraid of the one Liriano move which sends our organization back 5+ years. Or maybe I just dislike World Championships.

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 06:32 PM) So you see absolutely no upside in MacDougal? Yes, I know he's a health risk. Is that your only concern? Or have you already come to the conclusion that we got burned in this deal? Of course I see upside. It's just difficult to look past injury concerns and concentrate solely on his potential. A potential which has yet to be achieved. I realize you could use this for Lumsden and Cortes as well, but both are starting pitching prospects who ultimately are more valuable to long term success of a ballclub. Another concern is assisting a team within our division. We're giving them our top pitching talent. How incredibly short sighted is that?

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 06:12 PM) In Flash's defense he's liked Lumsden for quite some time now. Just like I liked (and raved about) Chris Young for quite some time and was very dissapointed that we moved him in what I called a questionable deal for Vazquez. Jason knows I've supported Lumsden for quite some time. He's one of the few prospects I've held this position towards.

Dbaho once said, "Where's our Tyler Lumsden?" It was a good laugh then, but now, it's quite sad to think about. Our minor league pitching is nonexistent. If it weren't decimated before, it's completely destroyed now. Is there one legitimate arm remaining in our system? If anyone here says Lance Broadway is now our top pitching prospect I'm going to die of laughter. Tell me Heads and company, what do we have to look forward to? Who's the closest to contributing? Where would we rank in comparison to other clubs? Where's our Liriano?

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2006 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 05:32 PM) Well, assuming MacDougal is healhy, I like this deal. Let's face it, we knew Kenny was probably gonna have to overpay a little if he was gonna be able to pull off a deal with an AL team -- even the Royals. MacDougal has an excellent arm and nasty stuff. He's proven (when healthy) to be pretty good. Who knows what his save total would've looked like last year if he wasn't closing games for the Royals. It's not like they have a lead after 8 all that often. You can't assume anything when health and MacDougal are in the same sentence. This is the problem. You can't avoid it. And we gave up our TOP minor league pitcher and another raw arm for this? Where the hell are these deals are our end? I want the equivalent of this deal for Freddy Garcia. I want another general manager to overpay for one of our players. Where's the pseudo Williams out there looking to "win now" and "overpay" for Garcia? I can't believe Williams said he has no intent of trading players currently on the roster. Not that I question the truthfulness of the statement; I simply can't believe he hasn't explored sending off deadweight Garcia onto someone.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 04:41 PM) That sound you hear is the sigh of relief of thousands of Sox fans. Phew. Thousands may be about right. The other million plus are upset Williams isn't willing to move a lanky relief pitcher in a sexy move for Soriano

QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 04:35 PM) You mean you'd be more reluctant to criticize the move, right? Yes. I'm so furious at the notion of trading McCarthy I can't even structure a sentence correctly.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 04:33 PM) WSCR 4:30 pm update says the White Sox are exploring deals for both Soriano and Lee with the intent of flipping them. Meaning, one or the other, not acquiring/flipping both. For what it's worth. You have to wonder why a team would consider trading Soriano through us rather than the Nationals. We'd likely be providing a piece for another club which the Nationals can't offer. Who could that be? I believe everything will fall together rather quickly now. Wouldn't be surprised if an announcement of a huge trade, and the move thereafter, were made before the day ended. I hope not, but if anything will happen I couldn't imagine it lingering on any longer.

QUOTE(santo=dorf @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 04:21 PM) BUT THEIR FARM SYSTEM!!! Oh I forgot. World Series aren't guaranteed like minor league pitching prospects. :rolly No, but there's more of a guarantee involving the production of certain minor league pitchers. Every season there's players you look at and know they'll produce. How often does a team have that guarantee with winning a world series? MacDougal helps us more now, and perhaps the next two, but what about the following seven to nine with Lumsden? There's nothing wrong with thinking about winning now and preserving your team in the future. I like the idea of sustaining success with a strong group of minor leaguers capable of replacing current players. If MacDougal didn't have injury concerns and Kansas City weren't in the division I'd be less reluctant to criticize the move.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 04:15 PM) Let's do a "Cubs trade" to get Soraino w/o trading BMac My proposal Gload, Pods, Rogo, and a PTBN for Soriano These of the sort of trades I like. Giving up McCarthy for Soriano? :puke Where's the pseudo Williams out there willing to give us their best young pitchers for Garcia or Vazquez because they're out to "win now?" Where is he?

QUOTE(rcpweiner @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 03:43 PM) Wah, wah, wah. They preached defense and strong pitching last year, and won it all. This year things (say, pitching not being nearly as strong as last year) and they feel they have to adapt a bit. Why do you fear change so much? Not every team wins with pitching and defense. Some teams are made for that, some aren't. And, as the poor starts by Mark, Javy and Freddy pile up, maybe this year's version isn't made for the type of pitching and defense that last year's was. We're in 2006 here. Change isn't a bad thing. Flip-flopping is, in some cases, good. So, because our pitching has faltered we're adopting the 2004 Red Sox position of clubbing another team to death? Even after Williams himself noted the softball tendencies of previous teams? If 2006's motto is "forget about starting pitching," then yeah, we're in a good position to follow that. The FIRST concern should have been to move Garcia/Vazquez and insert McCarthy into the rotation. If somehow this move is upcoming, than I'll change my position. Until then, or word from Kenny on the contrary, I'll question his line of thinking.

QUOTE(BigNDfan80 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 03:40 PM) WIN NOW! Why does everyone look so far into the future? You can always trade for arms later. Right now, you need to focus on winning a back to back World Series in 2006. Winning now isn't guaranteed. Our position now in the standings doesn't even guarantee a playoff spot. And often the idea of "winning now" kills an organization several years down the line. Decisions are made which are regretted later. Ask San Francisco how they delt with "winning now" when Pierzynski was traded for. Or the Mets with Scott Kazmir. Above all us, we traded Lumsden to a division rival!!! We're giving them a legitimate starting pitching prospect to pitch against us in the future. To answer Chaos, I'm concerned about our farm system because I'd like an arm or two available in several years when this rotation is disassembled. Lumsden seemingly gave us hope, and had good peripherals to project as a mid to upper starter in the rotation. Now, what do we have?

QUOTE(spiderman @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 03:31 PM) So certain are you. He may have a good future, we'll see. His future is about as guaranteed as McDougals. How long until he's on the DL again? I have to admit, I'm very upset with Williams right now. Our already thin system has traded its best starting pitcher. If McCarthy is traded I'll be even more angry. That's unless we're unloading Soriano to a ballclub with a pitching prospect comparable to McCarthy. I want to know if we're actually intent on developing a minor league system? Using it as bargaining chips is great and all, but having some pitchers available to replace our current rotation would have been nice as well.

QUOTE(Finkelstein @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 03:18 PM) I believe that Levine just said that it was Tyler and someone named Cortez for MacDougal? Jesus Fvckin Christ. Do we have ANY legitimate arms left in our system? You sure as hell can't trade McCarthy now. Lumsden was our best arm, and closest to the majors. We essentially traded an oft injured reliever for a #2, #3 starting pitcher? Yeah, that screams "win now," which translate to "we have the better end of the deal for several seasons, until Lumsden makes us regret the deal from every season thereafter." Now since Lumsden has departed, I'll admit I had dreams of him making Buehrle expednable in two seasons. sigh......

QUOTE(shawnhillegas @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 02:54 PM) it makes sense for a number of reasons 1. we all want pitching, but pitching isnt out there, so turn to offense. 2. soriano must NOT become a tiger 3. mccarthy is awesome but this teams shelf life ends in 2007, and mccarthy, while a big factor, figures largest post 2007, when we will likely not be as good as we are now (presuming of course we dont resign everyone) 4. if we make it through the ALCS, the series is ours. the NL is horrendous. So, teams don't sustain success in baseball? The Atlanta Braves shelf life has extended over a decade. Oakland and Minnesot did well with themselves since 2000. Yes, none are consistent World Series winners, but that doesn't mean every year the farm was sold to "win now." Considering our playoff spot if far from guaranteed, you don't know whether we would even make the playoffs following a trade. Wouldn't look to good trading McCarthy if we're not in the playoffs, would it? At least last season our birth was all but guaranteed (as we seemingly thought) around the trade deadline. I also don't like the concept of number 2, where we're acquiring a player to keep another team from obtaining him. Sounds like something a four-year old would do. Concept number 1 is how the Texas Rangers run their ballclub. They sure as hell haven't won much. It's ridiculous to ignore our pitching woes for an improved offense. I agree Soriano replacing Podsednik would be a welcomed improvement, but unloading Garcia and moving McCarthy into the rotation would benefit us more.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 02:55 PM) Talking with a friend, we have to win now with that deal, or it's just not worth it. That's far from a guarantee now, last year, or any year with a baseball team. I just believe it's incredibly shortsighted to include a potential ace (for our rotation, atleast) for Soriano. Whether or not he's immediately swung to another club for pitching, it remains clear we'd be without McCarthy. Oh Heads, if you think my rantings now about our pitching is tiring, just wait until McCarthy leaves. My expecatations of our pitchers will be so absurd, you'll spiff yourself. Everybody will be compared to Liriano and Santana, even more than the currently are. "Where's our Liriano" posts will quadruple in frequency. Immediate contributions will be expected upon every prospect. I realize the logic of assembling a club to "win now," but does that excuse the lack of forsight concerning our teams following 2006? Would such a scenario involving McCarthy basically assure us of the same rotation next season? I'm not doubting KW's intelligence or track record, so no one needs to start that crap with "He did pretty good last year, har har har." Just don't like this, AT ALL.

fish this. You know, I honestly don't care who we'd receive in return. I don't believe you can trade McCarthy. You just can't. Williams can't possibly look at this rotation beyond this season and feel confident about it's performance and durability, can he? I believe it's a HUGE mistake to part with him. Trade every minor league pitcher our pathetic system has, just don't depart with perhaps our future ace. We're not Minnesota. Hall of Fame arms collected from Rule 5 drafts and lopsided deals don't happen to us. Our system, which is already behind several years in the division of starting pitching, can't take another hit.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jul 24, 2006 -> 02:18 PM) I know a lot of you don't want to see him again, but he recorded another save, striking out the side today. He's given up 3 hits and 2 walks in his last eleven innings, which means people are batting under .100 against him. He's an actual prospect at this point, racking up saves at Charlotte. It didn't work out for him the first time, but I would expect him back in September. Whatever has clicked with Logan -- whether that's twinging his delivery or developing control -- he has pitched unbelieveable as of late. Aside from his low BAA, Logan has missed bats. I recall information provided on the Sox game several days ago where he had 15/16 strikeouts in his last 10 innings, and that was prior to these recent appearances where the totals have increased. I'd have to imagine any promotion is held off until September, unless an injury occurs or Tracey is replaced. Of course this discussion could prove unneccessary if Williams ships him around the trade deadline.

Unless someone removed a large portion of Hangar's post, I don't see the problem with this thread. Big deal, he asked which game personally aggrivated you after watching. No one else has been legitimately upset after a poor game? It's inevitable over the course of 162 games.