Con te Giolito

I won't go that far (at least yet), but to me it's clear that Eaton and Sale were headed out no matter what this offseason. There is much less motivation to move anyone else and will have to be blown away to move forward with a full tear down.

Why is Hahn excused for settling on Sale (a superior player to Q btw) deal that was more realistic when he won't do the same for Quintana?

Burdi just isn't the kind of player who makes these lists 7 months after being drafted. Also there's some harm in projecting closers because there is a mental part of closing games that some guys just have and others dont. In a post Andrew Miller "firefighter" world that may not be as big a deal, but it still matters to have a guy that you feel can win you 1-run games in the 9th. Find that kind of pitcher and a lot of wins can come out of nowhere. If he hits and becomes an elite closer it would be a very big deal. That would seriously accelerate the rebuild

Replacing Robertson with Jones probably makes them better.

If he's willing to wait a month for the right deal for Jose Quintana he could've done the same to get Rafael Devers from Boston.

Dont misconstrue what I'm saying. They didn't fake a rebuild just to get rid of Sale and Eaton, but they were definitely more motivated to be rid of them and in the case of Sale settled for less from Boston to have him gone.

They simply aren't as motivated to deal Quintana as they were Eaton and Sale. Hell, they are more reluctant to give up Robertson and Melky than they were those two. I really hope they snap out of it and do what's right, there is still time, but right now it's clear some non baseball issues are governing baseball moves.

I agree wholeheartedly. Best case scenario they just replace Quintana with himself.

They need more depth. Right now they are pretty well set up to just become the White Sox of the past three or so years just with different names. What are they gonna do about 3b? Cf? Lf? Rf? DH? Not to try and bleed the Q thread into this one, but keeping Quintana robs them of at least a couple worthwhile position player prospects and a shot at a top 3 pick. Sox are counting on Call, Fisher, Michalczewski, Adolfo or Basabe (or someone I am missing entirely) to really take a huge step and become a Tim Anderson-like (I mean tier, not profile) prospect in the next six months. I think someone surprises us, but I'm not sure they will make that kind of leap forward. You'll still see the likes Jerry Sands, Moises Sierra, Gordon Beckham, JB Shuck, Carlos Sanchez having everyday roles in 2018. Cant win like that, we've learned that much.

It definitely could be posturing but I do wonder. Beane probably doesn't want to deal with him and the Sox/Rays are asking for players he wont trade. His loss. That team likely isnt going to a win division with that rotation. I know I'm not going to find many who agree, but I think Luhnow would give up Bregman for Quintana 1-for-1. That way he can move Gurriel to the 3rd and find some way to make 1b work with Marwin Gonzalez and/or AJ Reed. It actually hurts their 2017 chances more to move Musgrove, they are probably going to need him if (when) McCullers needs time off. Or if Keuchels shoulder problems just rob him completely of his abilities.

It wont be as good as Anderson's 2016.

Any upside Quintana has is wasted on the Sox. It actually does them a disservice to have him around as he'll hurt draft position. He'll have to get a lot better to up his value also, teams are more reticent to buy-in on outlier seasons now and, as has been said a million times, Quintana will not be the only option.

Well it depends what you're selling and who you're selling it to. Quintana, like all athletes after a certain age, is a depreciating asset. Your car right now KBB's at $10k but after another year of use would be only worth $7500. You have an offer on the table for $8k. Maybe you hold out and sell it for more waiting for the right buyer, but while you do that the car is continues to add mileage and years and depreciates because of that. Not only that, you run the risk of suffering a major breakdown, which would mean shelling out for repairs or selling the car for (basically) scrap. Also, you dont need this car anymore because you can walk to work...so your having it is an expensive convenience and poor allocation of resources.

Alright, so I guess there's slightly less risk there. I still think teams care 20 times more about the player than the contract.

I like Jose Quintana, I like watching him pitch and I like having him around. But, his positive attitude and professionalism will be of less usefulness for the next two years of bad White Sox baseball than what he can fetch in a trade right now. Sox need ballplayers, they need them of the young, talented and controllable variety and they need them in great quantity. This is not the "keep guys because you like them" kind of offseason, this is burn down the forest and start over fresh. By the time the Sox are contending again, at the earliest 2019, Quintana will only have two years left on his contract. Wasting his age 28 and 29 seasons on a ballclub that is almost certain to finish last in the AL Central when that value could've been cashed in for prospects is totally inexcusable. Its a not a decision anyone wants to make, I know it'll be a bittersweet moment for me if he's dealt, but it has to be done. After trading away Sale and Eaton and making only one 2017 acquisition (which was Derek f'in Holland) there is no reasonable hope of contention this year and probably none the year after. He's gotta go, and the Sox personal feelings about him need to be set aside in this kind of business decision. The positive influence he'll have on younger players is literally dwarved by the prospect of adding 4 or 5 names to the org top 30 and, chances are, at least one to the top 5.

Quintana had just as good a second half from an ERA standpoint. Nobody is really making any sort of convincing argument that Archer should be worth more than Quintana. The $2m AAV is pretty much meaningless and the 5th extra year of control could just as easily be a blessing or a curse. Quintana is the better pitcher and he's a lefty. He's the guy the Astros should and probably would rather have. The original argument was the Astros could "easily" view Archer and Quintana as equals, I think that idea is far fetched to say the least.

This indicates to me that the Sox would let non-baseball things have an affect on what should be a strictly baseball decision. If Eaton and Sale went so too should Quintana. Either rebuild or dont.

Yup I'm using recent results to make a judgment on a player because it "fits my agenda". Wanna know an example of a pitch who's never had a down year? Jose Quintana.

TOR starters dont have an ERA of 4. And for those who are FIP adherents Archer's FIP wasn't much better. He struck a lot of guys out and pitched 200 innings, which is good, but he wasn't very effective last year. Definitely wouldn't go into 2017 expecting him to be anything more than a 3, and a good one at that. He could certainly bounce back and pitch like a 2 (he's never really been a 1, and neither has Quintana) but I wouldn't count on it.

Archer could very easily already be declining this five years thing that everyone makes such a fuss over is really not that important. It'd be one thing if Archer was coming off his best season yet as a 24 year old but he's 28 and coming off his worst season. He's not bad, but a TOR starter he is not. Whatever I'm glad the Rays are doing whatever it is they are doing because it preserves the market for Quintana. Astros took their best shot at Archer and came up short, let the Rays loss be the Sox gain.

Nor is Archer

I don't know why they turned down that offer from the Astros.

Yea I dont know if that was "misspeaking".

OK dont get mad were talking about baseball. Calm. I would say Paulino + 2 (not necessarily lottery tickets btw) is about equal to Reed and Fisher. Paulino is the Astros consensus third best prospect, him plus two guys is probably worth about what Reed after a down year and lower-ranked Fisher are combined. Fair comparison I think, no too off base. Quintana has (a) better numbers (b) throws left handed © better injury history and (d) never had a major league ERA over 4. All of that is not outdone by Archer's sexier fastball or chump-change $2m AAV or year of extra control in 2022. And when specific packages get reported by the media yes I can take some liberties with what I assume is on the table. If the Astros were willing to give up what they apparently offered Tampa they are likely coming to the White Sox with similar offers, that makes sense. There's nothing controversial about that. Quintana is probably worth more than Adam Eaton also and no way does Tucker, Reed, Martes and Fisher beat the Sale deal. Moncada >>> Tucker Kopech >> Martes Basabe =< Reed (razor close, Reed's stock is way down) Diaz <<< Fisher

Well Reed was pretty hopeless, there's definitely reason to be down on him.