On 7/17/2019 at 6:46 AM, TheFutureIsNear said:

It needs to start with the front office. As long as Hahn and KW are in charge it won’t matter. There isn’t enough talent on the roster and I don’t see that changing with who we have making decisions. Nor do I trust their ability to pick the right coach.

 

Letting the same 2 people that put the team into a whole try to dig out of it was/is the dumbest thing possible. Really can’t think of many other instances where a front office was given this long of a leash...and ours has hung themselves with that leash multiple times over by now.

As long as the Reinsdorf regime is in control, the type of cultural change that's desperately needed will not happen.

This cabal is not on the same wave-length with its fanbase. We are fans. They are not  sportsmen. They are bu$ine$$men who found a way to make boat loads of cash without being competitive.  So, these medicine men  peddle their perpetual rebuild elixirs of a better tomorrow onto what's left of a once great fanbase and friggin laugh all the way to the bank.

Someone tell me what ownership group committed to on the field results would hire/retain Kenny-Hahn and Renteria as the management face of their organization?

Edited July 19, 20196 yr by GradMc

6 hours ago, GradMc said:

As long as the Reinsdorf regime is in control, the type of cultural change that's desperately needed will not happen.

This cabal is not on the same wave-length with its fanbase. We are fans. They are not  sportsmen. They are bu$ine$$men who found a way to make boat loads of cash without being competitive.  So, these medicine men  peddle their perpetual rebuild elixirs of a better tomorrow onto what's left of a once great fanbase and friggin laugh all the way to the bank.

Someone tell me what ownership group committed to on the field results would hire/retain Kenny-Hahn and Renteria as the management face of their organization?

Next year will be Reinsdorf’s 40th as owner of the Sox, and sadly, after four decades now, the bolded is the legacy he will leave.  

Well if a shakeup enhances the comfort and happiness of Williams, Hahn and Cooper, then it will happen.  If it doesn't, it won't.  Losing, playing poorly, etc. has very to do with these decisions.

52 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Next year will be Reinsdorf’s 40th as owner of the Sox, and sadly, after four decades now, the bolded is the legacy he will leave.  

Sometimes I wonder if Reinsdorf thinks about his legacy. The Bulls had that great success in the '90's but that is now 20 years in rear view mirror and a new generation of Bulls fans don't know what real success is all about. The White Sox broke through in 2005, but since then the team has won but one playoff game, and now has a string of losing seasons. Next year makes 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're losing.

I don't feel qualified to express an opinion on coaches. Bennetti was defending them the other day, saying they address problems and fundamental play. But with all the losing, one would think change would be needed. But, as others have noted, change is not something that happens much with the White Sox. I don't anticipate any shakeup.

59 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

Sometimes I wonder if Reinsdorf thinks about his legacy. The Bulls had that great success in the '90's but that is now 20 years in rear view mirror and a new generation of Bulls fans don't know what real success is all about. The White Sox broke through in 2005, but since then the team has won but one playoff game, and now has a string of losing seasons. Next year makes 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're losing.

I don't feel qualified to express an opinion on coaches. Bennetti was defending them the other day, saying they address problems and fundamental play. But with all the losing, one would think change would be needed. But, as others have noted, change is not something that happens much with the White Sox. I don't anticipate any shakeup.

This is why some people are quite disingenuous when they criticize those fans who express impatience with the rebuild and all of the losing that goes with it because the rebuild itself is only in its third year.  They forget the rebuild, which started in 2016, was on the heels of a lot of losing baseball between the end of the World Series in 2005 and the beginning of the rebuild in 2016. 

Layer on all of that losing the fact the same people in both the FO and dugout who are responsible for all or most of that losing are still hanging around only adds to the frustration of the fan base.

New ownership, and a total house cleaning, is what this franchise desparately needs, and has for quite some time.    

All that needs to be known is that during the Reinsdorf era the Sox have been to the postseason 5 times. Only 3 teams have less playoff appearances than the Sox during that time frame and 2 of them didn't have a team until the 1990s. The Mariners and Rays have 4 playoff appearances. The Marlins have 2.

The Brewers, Nationals, Padres, Reds, Rockies, Royals each had 5 appearances. That is some shitty company to be over the last 40 years.

Edited July 19, 20196 yr by Sox Fan In Husker Land

14 minutes ago, Sox Fan In Husker Land said:

All that needs to be known is that during the Reinsdorf era the Sox have been to the postseason 5 times. Only 3 teams have less playoff appearances than the Sox during that time frame and 2 of them didn't have a team until the 1990s. The Mariners and Rays have 4 playoff appearances. The Marlins have 2.

The Brewers, Nationals, Padres, Reds, Rockies, Royals each had 5 appearances. That is some shitty company to be over the last 40 years.

I often say it.  At least we aren't Mariners fans.

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Sometimes I wonder if Reinsdorf thinks about his legacy. The Bulls had that great success in the '90's but that is now 20 years in rear view mirror and a new generation of Bulls fans don't know what real success is all about. The White Sox broke through in 2005, but since then the team has won but one playoff game, and now has a string of losing seasons. Next year makes 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're losing.

I don't feel qualified to express an opinion on coaches. Bennetti was defending them the other day, saying they address problems and fundamental play. But with all the losing, one would think change would be needed. But, as others have noted, change is not something that happens much with the White Sox. I don't anticipate any shakeup.

I'm glad you brought this up. If Jason is being accurate and I assume since he sees the club everyday he should be, I'm left to draw three possible conclusions. None of which bode well:

1. If the manager / coaches are being diligent in teaching than the WAY they teach is not getting through to the players.

2. The players are simply "baseball-stupid" and no matter how well the manager / coaches teach they can't learn it.

3. The managers / coaches are teaching very well but the players are basically ignoring what they are saying, "in one ear and out the other..."

To me there's just no excuse for as bad of fundamental baseball as we've seen at bat, in the field and on the bases since 2012.

It's interesting that coaches are often given credit for the performance of a top tier pitcher or hitter.  When I compare that to a touring pro golfer and a run of the mill weekend golfer going to the club pro.  Both the touring pro and the average Joe want to lower their respective average score by three shots per round.  The club pro would have no trouble helping average Joe improve by three shots.  On the other hand...he would probably fail at helping the touring pro improve much if any.  Why doesn't the coach or coaches find it easy to help the Engel, Cordell,  Tilson, Nova, Lopez, Fulmer and on and on type of player.  That's where coaches would show me their worth.  Improve the average Joes...the stars are already good.  They already know more about hitting & pitching than the coaches ever did.  On an up note...Boston has been working with Eloy on his fielding and you can see the improvement.  Boston couldn't help Engel nearly as much because Engel is better at it than Boston ever was.  I just don't see Cooper & Steverson helping their average Joe's improve very much if at all.

Edited July 19, 20196 yr by poppysox

4 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Sometimes I wonder if Reinsdorf thinks about his legacy. The Bulls had that great success in the '90's but that is now 20 years in rear view mirror and a new generation of Bulls fans don't know what real success is all about. The White Sox broke through in 2005, but since then the team has won but one playoff game, and now has a string of losing seasons. Next year makes 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're losing.

I don't feel qualified to express an opinion on coaches. Bennetti was defending them the other day, saying they address problems and fundamental play. But with all the losing, one would think change would be needed. But, as others have noted, change is not something that happens much with the White Sox. I don't anticipate any shakeup.

JR could care less about his legacy. His main objective with both of his teams was making money. He's been very very good at making money. Both of his teams are making him richer every year. As far as the White Sox go, the only thing he has to hang his hat on is the 2005 World championship season. Other than that his ownership of the White Sox has been BAD. It continues to be bad but like I said he's making nothing but money with this team.

On 7/17/2019 at 12:08 AM, harkness99 said:

Ricky fucking blows... have you seen the not give a fuck effort by this team the last 5?

 

I have always contended that if I had to win next season like my life depended on it...Billy Martin would be my manager.  If I was going to hire a manager to see me through a winning decade it would be Earl Weaver.  Managers can make a difference so you want to have the right guy for where you are.  Billy was merciless in getting his players to play at 110% of their abilities.  He got the most out of players but at a price.  Earl was a master of recognizing the kind of players he had and played to their strengths.  He put basically the same lineup on the field every day.  He didn't believe in bunting or stealing bases.  He did believe in good pitchers and three run homers.

At the time Ricky was replaced as Cubs manager it seemed kind of disloyal to him.  Now I wonder if it isn't his makeup to do well with young players developing but the qualities to win championships may not be his strong suit.

14 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I have always contended that if I had to win next season like my life depended on it...Billy Martin would be my manager.  If I was going to hire a manager to see me through a winning decade it would be Earl Weaver.  Managers can make a difference so you want to have the right guy for where you are.  Billy was merciless in getting his players to play at 110% of their abilities.  He got the most out of players but at a price.  Earl was a master of recognizing the kind of players he had and played to their strengths.  He put basically the same lineup on the field every day.  He didn't believe in bunting or stealing bases.  He did believe in good pitchers and three run homers.

At the time Ricky was replaced as Cubs manager it seemed kind of disloyal to him.  Now I wonder if it isn't his makeup to do well with young players developing but the qualities to win championships may not be his strong suit.

This was the same argument with Jerry Manuel and Torborg as well...we desperately need a “finisher.”

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

This was the same argument with Jerry Manuel and Torborg as well...we desperately need a “finisher.”

Joe Girardi would be my choice of currently available managers.  He would do wonders for the creditability of the rebuild.  The baseball Nation would take notice.

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

This was the same argument with Jerry Manuel and Torborg as well...we desperately need a “finisher.”

Torborg in my opinion would have been a "finisher" if Ron Schueler hadn't wanted to hire his own guy and ran Jeff out of town. the Sox players I've interviewed when he was manager loved him, his style, the way he handled games and played very hard for him.

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Torborg in my opinion would have been a "finisher" if Ron Schueler hadn't wanted to hire his own guy and ran Jeff out of town. the Sox players I've interviewed when he was manager loved him, his style, the way he handled games and played very hard for him.

That 1990 team was far and away my favorite until 2005...

23 hours ago, WBWSF said:

JR could care less about his legacy. His main objective with both of his teams was making money. He's been very very good at making money. Both of his teams are making him richer every year. As far as the White Sox go, the only thing he has to hang his hat on is the 2005 World championship season. Other than that his ownership of the White Sox has been BAD. It continues to be bad but like I said he's making nothing but money with this team.

You would think any normal person would care about what memories he leaves behind. If I were him, and I was sitting in the owner's box, and looked down and saw an empty stadium and a losing team year after year and then looked in the dugout and saw the same faces, I'd want to do something about it. I wouldn't want to be remembered as someone who didn't care. But that is just me.

53 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

You would think any normal person would care about what memories he leaves behind. If I were him, and I was sitting in the owner's box, and looked down and saw an empty stadium and a losing team year after year and then looked in the dugout and saw the same faces, I'd want to do something about it. I wouldn't want to be remembered as someone who didn't care. But that is just me.

I don’t imagine anyone desires “eternally loyal to Kenny Williams, Rick Hahn, Robin Ventura and Buddy Bell” as his epitaph.

57 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

You would think any normal person would care about what memories he leaves behind. If I were him, and I was sitting in the owner's box, and looked down and saw an empty stadium and a losing team year after year and then looked in the dugout and saw the same faces, I'd want to do something about it. I wouldn't want to be remembered as someone who didn't care. But that is just me.

When you have the kind of money and power JR has "normalcy" doesn't apply.

When Jerry or his estate sell the club it would undoubtedly be more valuable as a championship type team with lots of well known players than as a bottom feeder.  For those fans who think JR is all about the money...he still has plenty of reason to build a winner.

Seeing the progress of Moncada,  Anderson and James McCann to a degree, I have no problem with Severson as I want to see him work with Eloy, Madrigal and Robert but what is his overall hitting philosophy? Because it would be nice to see the team take more walks but maybe that comes down to the guys on the roster. 

2 minutes ago, Joshua Strong said:

Seeing the progress of Moncada,  Anderson and James McCann to a degree, I have no problem with Severson as I want to see him work with Eloy, Madrigal and Robert but what is his overall hitting philosophy? Because it would be nice to see the team take more walks but maybe that comes down to the guys on the roster. 

I want the guy working with Robert at AAA.  He even has Engel hitting a little.

7 hours ago, poppysox said:

When Jerry or his estate sell the club it would undoubtedly be more valuable as a championship type team with lots of well known players than as a bottom feeder.  For those fans who think JR is all about the money...he still has plenty of reason to build a winner.

Not necessarily. If you were to have a very high payroll full of stars that could actually scare off potential owners who aren't willing to maintain that level of "dedication" for wont of a better word to winning.

And JR isn't selling he's made that crystal clear publicly because of the tax hit his estate / family would take.

When he passes since he's also made it clear he's advised the family to sell, I'd imagine his partners would get first crack at the team, if no one wants it, it would go into an open process where any company or individual could get involved. 

6 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Not necessarily. If you were to have a very high payroll full of stars that could actually scare off potential owners who aren't willing to maintain that level of "dedication" for wont of a better word to winning.

And JR isn't selling he's made that crystal clear publicly because of the tax hit his estate / family would take.

When he passes since he's also made it clear he's advised the family to sell, I'd imagine his partners would get first crack at the team, if no one wants it, it would go into an open process where any company or individual could get involved. 

Yes indeed...there is a counter argument for almost anything someone could say.

13 hours ago, poppysox said:

When Jerry or his estate sell the club it would undoubtedly be more valuable as a championship type team with lots of well known players than as a bottom feeder.  For those fans who think JR is all about the money...he still has plenty of reason to build a winner.

He  does have plenty of reasons to build a winner, but that doesn't mean he will. We will see. If the rebuild starts showing results, and a high priced free agent can help put the team over the top, we will see what JR does. Right now Steve Stone is still building that house, and we have a year or two to wait.

15 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Not necessarily. If you were to have a very high payroll full of stars that could actually scare off potential owners who aren't willing to maintain that level of "dedication" for wont of a better word to winning.

And JR isn't selling he's made that crystal clear publicly because of the tax hit his estate / family would take.

When he passes since he's also made it clear he's advised the family to sell, I'd imagine his partners would get first crack at the team, if no one wants it, it would go into an open process where any company or individual could get involved. 

The thought someone in that cabal would assume the ownership reigns is absolutely frightening. It would be more of the same.

If Reinsdorf cares about his financial legacy they need to put the team out there when he passes and sell to the highest bidder. 

That practically guarantees anyone from this present group will get out-bidded.

I doubt anyone from the group was for upping the payroll to 200 mil and signing Harper, Machado and a couple of aces.

But even if they didn't win this year, the future would be very bright.

The Sox would have drawn 2.5 to 3 mil.

Where I come from you gotta spend it to make it.

Edited July 21, 20196 yr by GradMc