southsider2k5 Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 47 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Ultimately, if they get nothing in trade return they're just taking time away from younger players. The bigger problem is no better outfield options to replace them in the minors. But Rojas was already starting to eat into Sosa's playing time (as well as Baldwin), and you can practically guarantee the Josh Rojas deadline return will be zero. This is the entire problem with the older utility guys signings. They literally just take up space and do nothing to advance the franchise 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 5 Author Share Posted June 5 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: But these are literally the only type of logical signings that a team that is spending a minimal amount of money each offseason, like the Sox, can make. Once again, the Sox have been doing this for years. I don’t see it as a planned out strategy. It’s basically, sign a bunch of older vets and pray that they have a good year. It may work and it may not due to injuries, poor performance, age, or a combination of these reasons (see Josh Rojas, Michael A. Taylor, Martin Perez, Mike Clevinger). It’s basically the $5 million and under bargain bin at the MLB free agent waste management site, a.k.a. dumpster. It definitely isn’t a sustainable strategy if you want your team to be any sort of contender. I have no idea what you're arguing, or why you responded to my post with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 (edited) 39 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I have no idea what you're arguing, or why you responded to my post with this. I’m really not arguing anything. I have no idea why you aren’t understanding what I am saying, but I’ll try again here… Getz has pretty much been pigeonholed in his past two offseasons. Can he even sign higher priced free agents that he may actually want? No. Therefore, there is really only one offseason plan that Getz can employ due to Reinsdorf not wanting to spend any money, and it’s simply signing cheapish veterans under $5 million dollars each and hoping that they have a good season. If that’s some sort of strategy for going after the latest market inefficiency, the Sox have already been doing it for years. If you can’t understand my post, you are simply trying to be deliberately obtuse. Edited June 5 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 (edited) 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: Building a winning rotation or pen through Rule 5 draft picks would be wholeheartedly endorsed by JR but never successfully pulled off by any team in MLB history...even Charlie Finley's penurious A's. Getz has done very well in the Rule 5. Drohan didn’t work out but Shane Smith alone could be the best pick in years, and he also acquired Vasil. Workman didn’t work out either but two out of four is really good. But I do agree with you, no GM can bank on Rule 5 picks panning out each year. Edited June 5 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 5 Author Share Posted June 5 1 hour ago, caulfield12 said: Ultimately, if they get nothing in trade return they're just taking time away from younger players. The bigger problem is no better outfield options to replace them in the minors. But Rojas was already starting to eat into Sosa's playing time (as well as Baldwin), and you can practically guarantee the Josh Rojas deadline return will be zero. The Padres did exactly this. Heyward/Joe blew up in their faces, and poor Tirso Ornelas is now blocked by Heyward and Tyler Wade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 5 Author Share Posted June 5 (edited) 33 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: I’m really not arguing anything. I have no idea why you aren’t understanding what I am saying, but I’ll try again here… Getz has pretty much been pigeonholed in his past two offseasons. Can he even sign higher priced free agents that he may actually want? No. Therefore, there is really only one offseason plan that Getz can employ due to Reinsdorf not wanting to spend any money, and it’s simply signing cheapish veterans under $5 million dollars each and hoping that they have a good season. If that’s some sort of strategy for going after the latest market inefficiency, the Sox have already been doing it for years. If you can’t understand my post, you are simply trying to be deliberately obtuse. Oh, I understand your post. It just has nothing to do with anything I said. "Older" players who are non-stars have seen their salaries drop off from the $4-8M that Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso were paid by the Sox in 2019 (they traded for Alonso) down to near the league minimum. So loading up on $1M players to form a platoon or start for half a season is a new "market inefficiency". The Padres just tried doing this with Jayson Heyward and Conner Joe. I have no idea why you reject that and have to argue against that. It's a phenomenon that owners' recent decisions to cut rather than pay controlled non-stars has created. So that makes for a bunch of free agents who take what they can get. That was my point. Because you can't stand to read anything that doesn't slam Chris Getz, you have to pretend that I said that Getz invented this, and he's a genius, and whatever else you claimed. The signings of Tauchman and Slater were a good move. And yes, I would expect Getz to do more of this in the coming off-season until the young core matures, and the Sox get their TV situation straightened out. Edited June 5 by WestEddy clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 21 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Oh, I understand your post. It just has nothing to do with anything I said. "Older" players who are non-stars have seen their salaries drop off from the $4-8M that Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso were paid by the Sox in 2019 (they traded for Alonso) down to near the league minimum. So loading up on $1M players to form a platoon or start for half a season is a new "market inefficiency". The Padres just tried doing this with Jayson Heyward and Conner Joe. I have no idea why you reject that and have to argue against that. It's a phenomenon that owners' recent decisions to cut rather than pay controlled non-stars has created. So that makes for a bunch of free agents who take what they can get. That was my point. Because you can't stand to read anything that doesn't slam Chris Getz, you have to pretend that I said that Getz invented this, and he's a genius, and whatever else you claimed. The signings of Tauchman and Slater were a good move. And yes, I would expect Getz to do more of this in the coming off-season until the young core matures, and the Sox get their TV situation straightened out. The Padres did that simply because they ran out of budget space...and had no choice. They did the same thing the prior year and it worked out beautifully, and were in a position to take out the Dodgers. The problem is that it doesn't make as much sense for non-contending teams like the White Sox...unless you're covering for holes in your minor league system. Even then, the bottom line is what return you're eventually getting on that (limited) investment. Martin Perez in theory had the most value coming into the season, after Robert. Pretty much nobody in the bullpen. Thaiss had/has a 0.6 or 0.7 fWAR (#3 on the position player side) and got a very limited piece back in return. Tauchman and Slater and Taylor are exactly the kind of guys the Padres will be looking at, along with Robert, but everyone will be sorely disappointed with the trade return. Rojas is going to return nothing, same with Clevinger. It's just not a very reliable way to move the needle on the margins...same thing with relying on Rule 5 drafts when you could probably go for an entire decade with the White Sox having negligible impact there since the 80's and 90's with guys like Bobby Bonilla. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 51 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Oh, I understand your post. It just has nothing to do with anything I said. "Older" players who are non-stars have seen their salaries drop off from the $4-8M that Jon Jay and Yonder Alonso were paid by the Sox in 2019 (they traded for Alonso) down to near the league minimum. So loading up on $1M players to form a platoon or start for half a season is a new "market inefficiency". The Padres just tried doing this with Jayson Heyward and Conner Joe. I have no idea why you reject that and have to argue against that. It's a phenomenon that owners' recent decisions to cut rather than pay controlled non-stars has created. So that makes for a bunch of free agents who take what they can get. That was my point. Because you can't stand to read anything that doesn't slam Chris Getz, you have to pretend that I said that Getz invented this, and he's a genius, and whatever else you claimed. The signings of Tauchman and Slater were a good move. And yes, I would expect Getz to do more of this in the coming off-season until the young core matures, and the Sox get their TV situation straightened out. You have to collect value from something for it to be a value proposition. This is not happening with the type of guy the Sox have signed the last couple of years. Mostly they have been negative players with no trade value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 And Carlos Rodon in 2021 was just a complete fluke...not to mention he was a 1-3 draft pick, so clearly he had TALENT on his side. What was the best Sox trade return all of last year (not counting Cease/Crochet), arguably Tanner Banks for Bergolla??? ALSO: we keep repeating over and over again that the teams don't trade premium position prospects anymore...but the Padres gave up an All-Star SS (Abrams), an All-Star LF (James Wood), an All-Star pitcher (Mackenzie Gore, who totally shut down the Cubs tonight), plus Washington just debuted Robert Hassell in the OF/DH and pitcher Jarlin Susana isn't far behind. Talk about a huge trade steal for Juan Soto. And yet the Nationals are still miles behind the Phillies Mets and Braves in that division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted June 10 Author Share Posted June 10 Adding to the notion that older players for cheap is "the new market inefficiency", SoxMachine wrote about Tauchman and his approach to the game. Quote "The league is getting younger and younger, so I think that experience has become something I've fortunately been able to rely on, because I've been able to gain it over the last few years or so," Tauchman said. To put it another way, when optionality and cost-capped years of control are so highly valued by teams, who are always tracking performance metrics for indications that they can find a cheap facsimile of more established and thus more expensive players, maybe experience becomes a somewhat undervalued quality. Every team covets elite bat speed, but finding hitters who have gleaned enough from their time in the league to recognize their opportunities to pull can produce a similarly pleasing spray chart, at least for 82 plate appearances thus far. Mike Tauchman is putting his experience to work, and pulling the ball with authority - Sox Machine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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