sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 How about a serial killer who "finds Jesus" while in prison? I often found it funny how many people "found Jesus" in prison, until I realized that Jesus came to earth exactly for those kinds of people. The losers, the sinners, the outcasts, the fools, the sox4lifes, the southsiders, the cwsoxs, etc I suck, no doubt about it, but once I realized that, that is when He took over. 16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. 19Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,'[4] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[5] " 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. 23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?" 26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." 27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?" 28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[6] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. Couldn't say it better than that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 A change of lifestyle is an important indicator if someone has Christ in their heart or is just giving lip service to it. If the guy really did have the Holy Spirit come into his heart, then yes, he would be saved. A serial killer who keeps killing never was a Christian. Does that mean then , that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Druid, what ever, cannot go to Heaven, if they don't embrace Jesus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Does that mean then , that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Druid, what ever, cannot go to Heaven, if they don't embrace Jesus? Yes it does. Being a good person isn't enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Yes it does. Being a good person isn't enough. I can't buy that! Jews and Christians alike believe in One G-d, where we differ is as to whether or not Jesus was (is) the Messiah. But since, we believe in the same G-d, why would He deny Jews entry to Heaven? Because we don't praise Jesus as the Messiah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I can't buy that! Jews and Christians alike believe in One G-d, where we differ is as to whether or not Jesus was (is) the Messiah. But since, we believe in the same G-d, why would He deny Jews entry to Heaven? Because we don't praise Jesus as the Messiah? It is pretty clear to me. The only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Does that mean then , that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Druid, what ever, cannot go to Heaven, if they don't embrace Jesus? I4E, not every Christian embraces that theology. At the very least there is the passage in the epsitles of Peter and elsewhere which speak of a descent to the dead by Christ so that those who die without Christ have a chance. Hence in the creeds we confess that Jesus descended to the dead. As well, there are those who understand that as Paul argues we (especially we being Gentiles) know God through Christ. That certainly does allow for those who know God without Christ, those of the Jewish faith, as that is what was writing about in that portion of Romans. It also allows that there may be other ways by which God is known. Judgment is not mine on others, on how they know God. 1 Corinthians tells us that love trumps faith so for me as God is love, that love will triumph for all. Grace will abound. And there are those who believe that one must have a specific faith in Christ alone and everyone else is without God. I am in the second camp. That will elicit strong disagreement from some, especially as I read some of the posts in this thread. There are different ways of understanding the Christian faith, theology is vast and yet no where near as vast as God. And I4E I am not about to get into a prolonged argument with those will differ on my theological stance. The Scriptures are the source for the faith and life of the Church for me and there I stand. I have heard all of the arguments and know all of the Biblical passages relevant very well. To dispute that here will get us no where because I am convinced by Scriptures. That Christians may disagree and be members of the Church is a strength of the faith. Although I suspect I may get called a few names too based on what I have seen in this thread - but then, life is forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 The question is very specific: do Christians have a moral and/or ethical obligation to forgive those who do them harm and there is only answer: yes. The reason there is only one answer is that the record of what Jesus taught is explicitly clear on this. To answer any other way is to substitute one's own standards for the teachings of Christ. Jesus not only taught that, Jesus lived that dying on the cross: Forgive them. But then again Jesus taught that repeatedly and it is repeated throughout the New Testament. It is the basic of the Lord's Prayer: forgive our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. It is the heart of the Sermon on the Mount. There is no other ethical option or moral option for someone who claims to be a Christian. This is not a matter of theological difference. The Gospel and the whole of the New Testament repeatedly stress the forgiveness that must be given to those who one harm. That is why the Pope (and I am not Catholic) went to personally forgive the man who tried to assassinate him. But again, Jesus on the cross says it all. Nuke, your question should be have you read the Scriptures and will you live by them or just give lip service to the call of Christ. If the commandments of Christ do not govern us in the most extreme of circumstances then they do not govern us at all. One cannot pick and choose when Christ's teachings apply, or that they only apply in minor or lesser circumstances and we can choose when they do not. For the record, murder has touched my family and friends. And when I was run down by a car, as a pedestrian, having had just enough time to shove my son out of the path of the car, I made a point to never learn the name of the driver so I would not be able to be angry and focus anger at the driver during that year of being unable to walk. The choice was not mine. Jesus on the cross leaves us no other choice. Does anyone live that out perfectly? No. That is why we continually pray the Lord's Prayer. That is why we are reminded that if we have something against another we must go and forgive and then come back to the Communion Table. That is why James says if we say we live in the light and yet have hostility and hate in our hearts we are in darkness still. And why Paul and Peter showed repeatedly the grace of forgiving those who did them harm. Why Jesus said what Jesus said the entire night of the betrayal. Etc. Etc. Etc. I sure don't live it perfectly. I struggle with that a lot, a lot. It took me the longest time to work this through with my ex wife for the things that she did. And sometimes with (former) friends or differences within the family, it can be a long haul to reach the point of forgivness. But my inability to live it out perfectly does not eliminate the ethical and moral imperitive I have to do it. I cry for grace so that I might have grace and show grace, that I might live grace and offer grace. When in my vocation I share the call of Christ with others it is always with the inner knowledge that I am the chief of sinners and transgressors and am called ever more to conform my life to the call of Christ. I answer this question with a firm and unequivocal yes keenly aware of my own failings. Thus one turns to Christ all the more. Forgive my sins as I forgive those who have sinned against me. Lord, have mercy. Christ, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. There are very few issues that are so totally clear in the teachings of Christ. Awesome. You wrote that VERY well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Cdub, I probably agree with you that Love trumps faith, I'm not sure yet. However, I can't get past the fact that Jesus trumps peter, paul, etc... (my new band name, ) John 14:6 "Jesus answered, " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". I have a hard time believing that you can "Love your way into heaven". Ultimately, it comes down to believing and having faith in WHO Jesus said he was. So while I think our first commandment is to love our God wholeheartedly and then love each other...we must have faith in the purpose of our exhistence. 1 Corinthians 13:13 "and these three remain: faith, hope and Love. But the greatest of these is Love." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 John 14:6 "Jesus answered, " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". This verse causes more consternation in the world then any other verse in the Bible, IMO. Mohammad did not say this. Buddists don't say this. Hindus don't have anyone saying this. Only in Christianity is this verse found. Hence, why it's so controversial. But that verse, is so key to everything we do if we're Christians. It's what sets us apart. We, as Christians, should make this verse the one that we spread the faith. Not be bible thumpers, but this leading our life as the example set forth. Bible Thumpers ain't cool. (So I know I'm inviting other beliefs to challenge this by making these kinds of statements. And yes, everyone has their opinion and I have mine. Not trying to start stuff or shove anything down anyone's throat, just stating my opinion!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I4E, not every Christian embraces that theology. At the very least there is the passage in the epsitles of Peter and elsewhere which speak of a descent to the dead by Christ so that those who die without Christ have a chance. Hence in the creeds we confess that Jesus descended to the dead. As well, there are those who understand that as Paul argues we (especially we being Gentiles) know God through Christ. That certainly does allow for those who know God without Christ, those of the Jewish faith, as that is what was writing about in that portion of Romans. It also allows that there may be other ways by which God is known. Judgment is not mine on others, on how they know God. 1 Corinthians tells us that love trumps faith so for me as God is love, that love will triumph for all. Grace will abound. And there are those who believe that one must have a specific faith in Christ alone and everyone else is without God. I am in the second camp. That will elicit strong disagreement from some, especially as I read some of the posts in this thread. There are different ways of understanding the Christian faith, theology is vast and yet no where near as vast as God. And I4E I am not about to get into a prolonged argument with those will differ on my theological stance. The Scriptures are the source for the faith and life of the Church for me and there I stand. I have heard all of the arguments and know all of the Biblical passages relevant very well. To dispute that here will get us no where because I am convinced by Scriptures. That Christians may disagree and be members of the Church is a strength of the faith. Although I suspect I may get called a few names too based on what I have seen in this thread - but then, life is forgiveness. I am not arguing, just asking questions for my own education. I haven't studied The New Testament at all; I am curious about it. People believe what they want (need) to believe. Since I am pro-choice, I have no problem with that. I (try to) live by one simple rule...treat others like you would like to be treated. I don't tell anyone how to live their lives, I don't want to be told how to live mine. Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 PA, that is where love trumps - in 1 Corinthians 13 - and that is God's love that trumps as I see it, not any action we can do. I really appreciated your post, thank you. In all I say, for me knowing God in Christ, Christ is the center (which is a great book by Bonhoeffer, Christ the Center). With Christ as center, as kapkomet says, all else follows. I don't understand the John citation as exclusionary as some do and that is ok because the Spirit leads us all to the one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one Church. And in God's house there are many rooms, there is not one monolithic doctrinal stance. In Christ we are free. I understand that in the whole context of what the entire Gospel of John says is my prism for looking at any one verse - and indeed the greatest commandment is to love one another. So the totality of it all being love - that keeps coming home to me. Kap, I thank you for your words, thank you. I am not so sure that is what separates us from others but it may also be a hair splitting of the most minute kind to discuss that and the greater unity is found in Christ and that's all where I need to leave it. There is no test of doctrine we take! God's grace suffices for us all! I4E, people read different things in the New Testatment (Christian Covenant) as they do with the Prime Covenant (I hate the term Old Testament). Christianity has as much diversity as Judaism. Its all good. We all need each other. No one group, be they whoever, has all the understandings of God. It is in our diversity that we begin to comprehend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Its all good. We all need each other. No one group, be they whoever, has all the understandings of God. It is in our diversity that we begin to comprehend. Without diveristy, we would have no way to educate ourselves. Differentiation (if that's a word) is VERY important to learn more about what it means to seek out the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 PA, that is where love trumps - in 1 Corinthians 13 - and that is God's love that trumps as I see it, not any action we can do. I really appreciated your post, thank you. no prob bob. I'm learning how to effectively communicate online. look at me go! anyway, I think that as long as Christ is continually preached as the center and way to life, then doctrinally you can believe what you want. personally, I'm not sure if the actual function of a baptism is necessary for salvation, but who knows...I'm 24 next month and have changed my mind a hundred times. Paul said "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. " just an example. Paul says alot things, and I guess what my point was that while I loveeeeeeee 1 Corinthians 13, I ultimately look to what Jesus said first, a la John 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Does anyone care that the word "love" has been hijacked. We "love" the Sox, we "love" SUVs, we "love" Jesus? Is there a clear difference or are we talking a continuing scale? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 It's a stronger version of like. It's better than saying HEY I LIKE THE SOX VERY MUCH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Does anyone care that the word "love" has been hijacked. We "love" the Sox, we "love" SUVs, we "love" Jesus? Is there a clear difference or are we talking a continuing scale? From your mouth it's whatever you want it to mean... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 From your mouth it's whatever you want it to mean... But other words can't be what we want them to be. Just ask PA and his pet word for stupid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Does anyone care that the word "love" has been hijacked. We "love" the Sox, we "love" SUVs, we "love" Jesus? Is there a clear difference or are we talking a continuing scale? actually is due to the fact that the greeks had 3 different words for love, whilst we waste away with our ONE word. so it's not really hijacked, just indicative of our inept language. now the word "gay"...that's another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 But other words can't be what we want them to be. Just ask PA and his pet word for stupid Never heard the word "love" used as a derrogatory label for homosexual people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Never heard the word "love" used as a derrogatory label for homosexual people. no, just the word meaning happy "Showing or characterized by cheerfulness and lighthearted excitement; merry." but whatever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Let's not have a vs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I would never.... you like my microsoft paint picture? I was bored at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 I would never.... you like my microsoft paint picture? I was bored at work. Very nice. I'm glad to see you are using your time wisely when they take away the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Let's not have a vs. Oh please... it doesn't need any more attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 19, 2004 Share Posted April 19, 2004 Oh please... it doesn't need any more attention. why? I think that's a great picture of you and besides, it's great publicity for my mythical creature's dominate the world picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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