CWSGuy406 Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Honestly, I am really not sure what type of player he will be. More or less, after looking at the Sox 1st rounders over the past 10 years, what guys have not been a bust? Sure, Fields looks like a solid power bat, but there are huge questions about his arm, as one scouting report only calls it "playable" at best. For a guy who is supposedly a college QB, why is his arm so weak? More or less, I am of the belief that you take pitching early in the draft, as I feel it's most important above all else. Others would disagree with me for various reasons. But take Tampa Bay for example, they have taken loads of talented offensive players (Crawford, Baldelli, Hamilton, Upton, Young, etc.) but have no pitching whatsoever that has developed. They'll never be a winner without a good balance. There were other more talented players on the board at this time, mainly college pitchers, which this draft was stocked with, whom I would have rather see the Sox take. Third base to me is not a primary need, sure we are weak lower in the organization, but I feel pretty confident that Crede will be our mainstay at 3rd for a while. Last year, with Brian Anderson, we knew what we were getting, a 5 tool player who has a chance to be great. While Josh Fields may turn out to be a solid player, it's hard to hear anyone say that he has a chance to be great. And also, I am somewhat just calling him a bust to annoy some of the so-called 15 year old experts around here with all of that GM experience in their careers... So, because I support and like the pick, you jokingly call me an expert now? If you hate the pick so much - who would you have taken at 18? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 And by the way, here are the last 12 Sox first rounders: 2003 Brian Anderson OF - SOLID THUS FAR 2002 Royce Ring, lhp 18 - BUST? Must be if we dealt him for Alomar 2001 Kris Honel, rhp 16 - INJURED 2000 Joe Borchard, rf 12 - BUST (according to most of you) 1999 Jason Stumm, rhp 15 - BUST 1999 Matt Ginter, rhp 22 - BUST 1998 Kip Wells, rhp 16 - No. 2, 3 starter in MLB after we DEALT him 1997 Jason Dellaero, ss-rhp 15 -BUST 1996 Bobby Seay, lhp 12 - BUST 1995 Jeff Liefer, if-of 25 -BUST 1994 Mark Johnson, c 26 - BUST 1994 Chris Clemons, rhp 33 - BUST Now, tell me why Fields won't buck the trend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 So, because I support and like the pick, you jokingly call me an expert now? If you hate the pick so much - who would you have taken at 18? Lambert or Tankersly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Sure, Fields looks like a solid power bat, but there are huge questions about his arm, as one scouting report only calls it "playable" at best. For a guy who is supposedly a college QB, why is his arm so weak? That statement reminds me alot of Borchard... But take Tampa Bay for example, they have taken loads of talented offensive players (Crawford, Baldelli, Hamilton, Upton, Young, etc.) but have no pitching whatsoever that has developed. They'll never be a winner without a good balance. Hello.. Brazelton, Seddon, DeBarr (even though he's struggling now) Gaudin, (another struggling but only 21 in AAA) Seay. They got some pitching. Still need work but it's not that inbalanced for a team that hasn't been in existence for that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 That statement reminds me alot of Borchard... You are right about that...Don't get me wrong about Fields, I am, like all of you, going to be rooting for him to succeed...I would have just rather had a pitcher that's all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Honestly, I am really not sure what type of player he will be. More or less, after looking at the Sox 1st rounders over the past 10 years, what guys have not been a bust? Sure, Fields looks like a solid power bat, but there are huge questions about his arm, as one scouting report only calls it "playable" at best. For a guy who is supposedly a college QB, why is his arm so weak? More or less, I am of the belief that you take pitching early in the draft, as I feel it's most important above all else. Others would disagree with me for various reasons. But take Tampa Bay for example, they have taken loads of talented offensive players (Crawford, Baldelli, Hamilton, Upton, Young, etc.) but have no pitching whatsoever that has developed. They'll never be a winner without a good balance. There were other more talented players on the board at this time, mainly college pitchers, which this draft was stocked with, whom I would have rather see the Sox take. Third base to me is not a primary need, sure we are weak lower in the organization, but I feel pretty confident that Crede will be our mainstay at 3rd for a while. Last year, with Brian Anderson, we knew what we were getting, a 5 tool player who has a chance to be great. While Josh Fields may turn out to be a solid player, it's hard to hear anyone say that he has a chance to be great. And also, I am somewhat just calling him a bust to annoy some of the so-called 15 year old experts around here with all of that GM experience in their careers... Its funny that your bring up Anderson. While I can't speak of behalf of Fields; being a U of A student and seeing Anderson play on an everyday basis for 2 years(and almost walking onto the team) I can speak on behalf of Anderson. Its funny that you say that the "Sox knew what they were getting" with Anderson, considering that Anderson only had 1 good year at the U of A. Anderson's soph. year was less than impressive .275/5/30 6 SB .773 OPS. The Sox drafted Anderson on potential and 1 good year, so he was far from a sure thing(word of advice, don' pretend to know something that you have no clue about). In fact, if you compare Fields soph and junior year to Anderson's junior year(his breakout season) you will see that they are very similar Fields soph - 229 AB .358/12/55 10 2B 4 SB 24 BB 46 SO Fields junior - 243 AB .362/10/47 21 2B 2 SB 47 BB 45 SO Anderson junior - 232 AB .366/14/62 12 2B 17 SB 24 BB 42 SO It is remarkable how similar their stats are, and I think it is a far comparison considering that both played and top D1 teams and in top D1 conferences. The differences are that Fields was far more consistant(Anderson's soph stats are posted in the 1st paragraph), and maybe the most important difference is that Fields showed significant improvement from a plate disipline standpoint in his junior season. Anderson does have more speed(expected from a CF), although Fields runs pretty well(only grounded into 8 DP's combined in his soph and junior seasons in 472 AB's). Anderson also has a little more defensive potential, but Fields is a decent defensive 3B according to the scouting reports that I have read. Most scouts love Fields production and potential and thought that he was a good pick for the Sox. I think Fields compares favorable to Anderson, and I am pretty high on Anderson. Furthermore, some people don't have the confidence in Crede that you do. It is remarkable how similar Clayton and Crede have been over the past year plus. If you remember correctly Clayton got off to terrible starts and rebounded to put up decent numbers(similar to Crede last year and hopefully this year). Crede has a little more power than Clayton, but besides that they are almost identical(similar average, terrible plate disipline, solid D, ect). Just something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 And by the way, here are the last 12 Sox first rounders: 2003 Brian Anderson OF - SOLID THUS FAR 2002 Royce Ring, lhp 18 - BUST? Must be if we dealt him for Alomar 2001 Kris Honel, rhp 16 - INJURED 2000 Joe Borchard, rf 12 - BUST (according to most of you) 1999 Jason Stumm, rhp 15 - BUST 1999 Matt Ginter, rhp 22 - BUST 1998 Kip Wells, rhp 16 - No. 2, 3 starter in MLB after we DEALT him 1997 Jason Dellaero, ss-rhp 15 -BUST 1996 Bobby Seay, lhp 12 - BUST 1995 Jeff Liefer, if-of 25 -BUST 1994 Mark Johnson, c 26 - BUST 1994 Chris Clemons, rhp 33 - BUST Now, tell me why Fields won't buck the trend... Well then, I guess the Sox just shouldn't even have drafted anyone and just forfieted their pick. I mean, it doesn't matter who they'd pick, they are going to be a bust... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Very good post, I enjoyed it very much and you bring up some excellent points. The only thing I would disagree with is that Anderson has 5 tool potential and that is one thing that Hahn and KW admitted they drafted him for, while Fields does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 You are right about that...Don't get me wrong about Fields, I am, like all of you, going to be rooting for him to succeed...I would have just rather had a pitcher that's all.... Understandable.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Very good post, I enjoyed it very much and you bring up some excellent points. The only thing I would disagree with is that Anderson has 5 tool potential and that is one thing that Hahn and KW admitted they drafted him for, while Fields does not. Yes, but how many 5-tool 3B are there in the majors/minors/college/ect? Fields might be one of the closest things to a 5-tool 3B. He has shown the ability to hit for average, has very good power potential, runs well compared to most 3B(looks like the 2nd coming of Michael Johnson compared to Crede from what I have seen of his running ability on the football field), has good plate disipline and has shown improvement(some people consider arm strength as a tool, but I classify that under defense and include plate disipline as a tool), and his D is considered average(the weakest of the 5 tools). I would say that he is pretty close to being a 5-tool player compared to other 3B. The point that I am trying to make is to give this kid a chance. He doesn't have 1 AB in the Sox organization, and yet you are already calling him a bust. You are a knowledgible guy, but I think that is stupid on your behalf to pass judgement on a guy that you have probably never seen play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Very good post, I enjoyed it very much and you bring up some excellent points. The only thing I would disagree with is that Anderson has 5 tool potential and that is one thing that Hahn and KW admitted they drafted him for, while Fields does not. Very fair statement. One thing the White Sox system lacks is a pure hitter, and this kid Fields may be just that. Sweeney, Reed, maybe Anderson have potential as .300 hitters, that's about it. I wonder personally if the White Sox didn't sit back and say, damn, we've been burned so many times picking a pitcher in the 1st round, let's take a stud athlete (which Fields clearly is) and grab tons of pitching in subsequent rounds, which they did. I was really happy when they picked Stumm, Honel, Ginter, Rauch, etc. but guess what, they've all had problems. Mostly injuries, some between the ears. The reason I like Fields is he is very projectable as a hitter and he's proven his abilities in a very tough conference. I would have been upset if they didn't load up with pitching in the supplemental and later rounds - but they did. The White Sox may be coming to the realization that when dealing with the draft, it's better to go with more of a sure thing than roll the dice (and pay big bonuses) with pitching. They could very well sign these supplemental guys for a bonus of less than $1 million and have just as good a pitcher. It's a crapshoot. As for long term needs, I was preaching catching and had rooted for Fields a few days ago. Why? What have they got if Crede or Olivo goes down? Nothing. We need depth, but not just depth ... quality depth. I'm happy with their draft thus far. They addressed just about every weak point in the organization, depth wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Yes, but how many 5-tool 3B are there in the majors/minors/college/ect? Fields might be one of the closest things to a 5-tool 3B. He has shown the ability to hit for average, has very good power potential, runs well compared to most 3B(looks like the 2nd coming of Michael Johnson compared to Crede from what I have seen of his running ability on the football field), has good plate disipline and has shown improvement(some people consider arm strength as a tool, but I classify that under defense and include plate disipline as a tool), and his D is considered average(the weakest of the 5 tools). I would say that he is pretty close to being a 5-tool player compared to other 3B. The point that I am trying to make is to give this kid a chance. He doesn't have 1 AB in the Sox organization, and yet you are already calling him a bust. You are a knowledgible guy, but I think that is stupid on your behalf to pass judgement on a guy that you have probably never seen play. Again, another good post. And like most around here, all I have seen is video... To Josh Fields and a successful MLB career, here ya go... Hope you make me eat crow one day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 And by the way, here are the last 12 Sox first rounders: 2003 Brian Anderson OF - SOLID THUS FAR 2002 Royce Ring, lhp 18 - BUST? Must be if we dealt him for Alomar 2001 Kris Honel, rhp 16 - INJURED 2000 Joe Borchard, rf 12 - BUST (according to most of you) 1999 Jason Stumm, rhp 15 - BUST 1999 Matt Ginter, rhp 22 - BUST 1998 Kip Wells, rhp 16 - No. 2, 3 starter in MLB after we DEALT him 1997 Jason Dellaero, ss-rhp 15 -BUST 1996 Bobby Seay, lhp 12 - BUST 1995 Jeff Liefer, if-of 25 -BUST 1994 Mark Johnson, c 26 - BUST 1994 Chris Clemons, rhp 33 - BUST Now, tell me why Fields won't buck the trend... You need to learn one important rule: past results DO NOT predict future outcomes. That is very important to remember because it applies to everything in life. What does the performance of past draft picks have to do with Fields? Answer...nothing. What if the Sox had the 1st pick a couple of years back and drafted Prior? With your theory, that all the Sox 1st round picks are busts, Prior would have never been a good pitcher. Furthermore, you really can't make judgements on guys drafted within the past 5 years. The sample size is too small and most of them are still in the minors. I understand that you wanted the Sox to draft a pitcher, and it is the Sox biggest weakness, but you have to understand that most of the pitchers that the Sox were targeting with their 1st round pick were off the table and they would have had to reach for a pitcher. Furthermore, drafting a pitcher in the 1st round is the most unpredictable thing. I mean look at the Sox past 1st round picks(busts as you call them), 7 out of the 12 were pitchers. The fact is that position players are a little easier to predict. The Sox did use their 2 supplemental picks on pitchers including 1 on a kid named Gonzalez who could be this years Sweeney(big sleeper). I have read multiple scouting reports on this kid and they are all the same. A big lefty, with a fastball consistantly in the low 90's, Zito-like curve(some even thought it was the best breaking ball in the draft), and good control. I don't know about you, but that sounds like the recipe for sucess. The only question marks about this kid is his signability and attitute. If the Sox can sign him, than keep on eye on him. He could turn out to be one of the top pitchers in this years draft(a lot of scouts had him going in the 1st round). They also got a decent arm in Russel and a couple of high risk high reward type arms. Overall I think the Sox addressed their needs very well. They got a 3B, C, middle infielder, and a dozen pitcher(give or take a few) in the first 10 rounds. I am not a fan of a couple of their picks, but I did think they did a good job of address weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Again, another good post. And like most around here, all I have seen is video... To Josh Fields and a successful MLB career, here ya go... Hope you make me eat crow one day. Your a class act aboz. That's why I'll always have respect for ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Aboz - just wondering (again) - do you like the pick of Gio Gonzalez in the second? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 You need to learn one important rule: past results DO NOT predict future outcomes. That is very important to remember because it applies to everything in life. What does the performance of past draft picks have to do with Fields? Answer...nothing. What if the Sox had the 1st pick a couple of years back and drafted Prior? With your theory, that all the Sox 1st round picks are busts, Prior would have never been a good pitcher. Furthermore, you really can't make judgements on guys drafted within the past 5 years. The sample size is too small and most of them are still in the minors. I understand that you wanted the Sox to draft a pitcher, and it is the Sox biggest weakness, but you have to understand that most of the pitchers that the Sox were targeting with their 1st round pick were off the table and they would have had to reach for a pitcher. Furthermore, drafting a pitcher in the 1st round is the most unpredictable thing. I mean look at the Sox past 1st round picks(busts as you call them), 7 out of the 12 were pitchers. The fact is that position players are a little easier to predict. The Sox did use their 2 supplemental picks on pitchers including 1 on a kid named Gonzalez who could be this years Sweeney(big sleeper). I have read multiple scouting reports on this kid and they are all the same. A big lefty, with a fastball consistantly in the low 90's, Zito-like curve(some even thought it was the best breaking ball in the draft), and good control. I don't know about you, but that sounds like the recipe for sucess. The only question marks about this kid is his signability and attitute. If the Sox can sign him, than keep on eye on him. He could turn out to be one of the top pitchers in this years draft(a lot of scouts had him going in the 1st round). They also got a decent arm in Russel and a couple of high risk high reward type arms. Overall I think the Sox addressed their needs very well. They got a 3B, C, middle infielder, and a dozen pitcher(give or take a few) in the first 10 rounds. I am not a fan of a couple of their picks, but I did think they did a good job of address weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Your a class act aboz. That's why I'll always have respect for ya. Well I will root for any Sox player, regardless of whether I like them or not, even Jon Rauch or Botch...While I am not totally sold on Fields being the stud you all think he can be, I am going to give him a shot and not complain about it anymore. And thank you for your kind words jreedfan8. It's too bad that Borch or Reed aren't going to get the call while Maggs is out. It's disheartening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Aboz - just wondering (again) - do you like the pick of Gio Gonzalez in the second? From what I read, sounds like a good pick with that nasty curve... Hope he is signable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 He has Barry Zito written all over him IMO.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Jas, I know you follow the draft alot closer than me did we get the best player possible at 18 and I wonder if this says Crede could be history sooner than later, I always enjoy your perspective draft info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 He has Barry Zito written all over him IMO.. With an even better fastball IMO. I posted a link in the Palehose Talk forum, but check out his video on MLB.com. At the 1:45 point in the video, he gives this kid a backdoor curve that is just filthy. Please - please - please - please - please.... No injuries - and sign this kid! Best pitcher we took all day IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 With an even better fastball IMO. I posted a link in the Palehose Talk forum, but check out his video on MLB.com. At the 1:45 point in the video, he gives this kid a backdoor curve that is just filthy. Please - please - please - please - please.... No injuries - and sign this kid! Best pitcher we took all day IMO. I'll check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 With an even better fastball IMO. I posted a link in the Palehose Talk forum, but check out his video on MLB.com. At the 1:45 point in the video, he gives this kid a backdoor curve that is just filthy. Please - please - please - please - please.... No injuries - and sign this kid! Best pitcher we took all day IMO. I just watched that and it was pure filth... Kinda looks like Munoz out there on the mound after seeing him. Nice move to first also, it already looks better than Schoenweis's move.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 8, 2004 Author Share Posted June 8, 2004 At 18 I thought Fields was a good pick. I liked Szymanski more because of all his upside, but Fields is possibly the best pure hitter in the draft. I am dissapointed the Sox didn't draft Larish at one point during his freefall to the 13th round. Fields will come in and fill an organizational need, but thats not it, he has a shot to be one of the best power hitters in the organization and that includes the major league level. I wasn't high on Fields until I saw his performance in the big 12 championship series (7-17 or so with 2 HR's) and some doubles and his homers were CRANKED. Very good swing and he seems to have an advanced eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 At 18 I thought Fields was a good pick. I liked Szymanski more because of all his upside, but Fields is possibly the best pure hitter in the draft. I am dissapointed the Sox didn't draft Larish at one point during his freefall to the 13th round. Fields will come in and fill an organizational need, but thats not it, he has a shot to be one of the best power hitters in the organization and that includes the major league level. I wasn't high on Fields until I saw his performance in the big 12 championship series (7-17 or so with 2 HR's) and some doubles and his homers were CRANKED. Very good swing and he seems to have an advanced eye. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason they probably didn't take Szymanski is purely money based, and probably because they wanted mostly pitching after taking Fields in round one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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