Hawk's Analysis

[Old Socks]

A few games ago Hawk said that the team went downhill after Torrrri Hunter did his cheap shot on Jamie Burke without a hint of retaliation from our beloved White Sox. I think he might be right.

[DBAHO]

A few games ago Hawk said that the team went downhill after Torrrri Hunter did his cheap shot on Jamie Burke without a hint of retaliation from our beloved White Sox.  I think he might be right.

I think our record after that game pretty much speaks for itself.

[YASNY]

See my comments about this in the Jamie Burke thread.

[winninguglyin83]

that didn't help.

 

neither did the loss of our two bigs guns.

 

And the absolute failure of every pitcher we have promoted from the minors.

 

and Crede's regression.

 

And Garland's failure to improve.

 

And Harris' inconsistency.

 

and Uribe's disappearance.

 

And the prolonged presence of Mike Jackson.

 

And ....

[The Critic]

I refuse to believe that if the Sox had gone out and danced in a big circle with the Twinkies, then Garland would be more consistent, Crede and Valentin's batting averages would be better, the Sox would have a right fielder and 5th starter, Robbie Alomar would show any signs of life at all, etc etc etc....

 

Maybe the lack of retaliation was embarrassing to some fans, but I think it had very very little to do with the Sox' slide this year. There just isn't enough talent on the roster to withstand the injuries AND the lack of production from that many everyday players.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I refuse to believe that if the Sox had gone out and danced in a big circle with the Twinkies, then Garland would be more consistent, Crede and Valentin's batting averages would be better, the Sox would have a right fielder and 5th starter, Robbie Alomar would show any signs of life at all, etc etc etc....

 

Maybe the lack of retaliation was embarrassing to some fans, but I think it had very very little to do with the Sox' slide this year. There just isn't enough talent on the roster to withstand the injuries AND the lack of production from that many everyday players.

Good point and maybe it wouldn't have been enough anyway. However it would have been nice to see what this team could have done with a healthy Frank and Maggs. I believe KW would have given away the entire farm system and gotten R.Johnson, still made the Contreras/Loaiza deal and with the hope of winning, possibly attracted a few other solid rentals instead of R. Alomar and Everett and made a huge push. I think that was the plan, to win THIS year, then Maggs and Frank went down, the rest of the team didn't believe in itself and the wheels slowly started falling off.

[3E8]

Something I saw the other day...

 

http://www.heavethehawk.com

 

Pretty rediculous. I love Hawk and wouldn't want anybody else calling our games.

[Guest JimH]

Good point and maybe it wouldn't have been enough anyway.  However it would have been nice to see what this team could have done with a healthy Frank and Maggs. I believe KW would have given away the entire farm system and gotten R.Johnson, still made the Contreras/Loaiza deal and with the hope of winning, possibly attracted a few other solid rentals instead of R. Alomar and Everett and made a huge push. I think that was the plan, to win THIS year, then Maggs and Frank went down, the rest of the team didn't believe in itself and the wheels slowly started falling off.

Good post. The deeper question is why did the wheels fall off? Certainly missing the two hitters made a huge difference and in general, it means guys get less good pitches to hit.

 

But they made some dumb errors in judgement. Why, for example, did they not think Valentin's average would not plummet for the 4th year in a row, and why did they not think his SO's wouldn't climb even higher?

 

Crede is a mystery. They should've expected him to improve, he regressed.

 

Same with Garland, they rightfully expected improvement from him and didn't get it. They expected too much from Harris IMO, and are now disappointed they didn't get it.

 

On the other hand, we have a guy like Rowand who is thriving. He's a guy who didn't buy into the built in excuse of "we lost our 3-4 hitters, we're toast". He just went out and improved and did the job. If any of us had been told Aaron Rowand would be the FT CF and will be hitting .320 with 20 HR's on Sept. 1st, we would've all said "print my playoff tickets".

 

Harrelson made a very astute comment last night, when Valentin struck out on a high fastball from Harden. He said, "I know it's easier to say than do, but you cannot let yourself get beat on high fastballs from Harden. It's a fairly easy pitch to recognize, you won't catch up to it upstairs, you've got to make him get the ball down." Clearly, he was disgusted that a veteran like Valentin didn't have a better game plan for the at bat.

 

I have learned a lot this year from watching the little things. I can see more clearly now who's smart and who isn't ... who can make adjustments from at bat to at bat, or even within an at bat. Further, who is WILLING to do it. Same with the pitchers ... do they have the brains and willingness to make adjustments when a hitter figures them out?

 

Bottom line, we have some guys who can't - Borchard is a good example.

 

It appears we have some guys who won't - Crede and Valentin as examples.

 

It also appears we have some guys who will - Rowand comes to mind, also Thomas when he's healthy.

 

As for pitching, we have some guys who are good at adjustments - Buehrle, Garcia. Contreras hasn't had to do that in his career but we are at least seeing progress.

 

Guys who, to me, have demonstrated they're not bright enough to make adjustments or are unwilling to do so include Garland, Politte, Diaz.

 

The sooner Williams identifies the "I can and I will" from the "I can't and/or I won't", the better off this team will be.

[LDF]

A few games ago Hawk said that the team went downhill after Torrrri Hunter did his cheap shot on Jamie Burke without a hint of retaliation from our beloved White Sox.  I think he might be right.

if i remember right, we or should i say a handfull of posters (the longer poster) was mentioning that, that night when it happen.

 

i was surprise b/c jose v usually does something right away and he didn't.

 

ie last yr when he let his bat fly into the minny dugout.

[LDF]

Good post.  The deeper question is why did the wheels fall off?  Certainly missing the two hitters made a huge difference and in general, it means guys get less good pitches to hit.

 

But they made some dumb errors in judgement.  Why, for example, did they not think Valentin's average would not plummet for the 4th year in a row, and why did they not think his SO's wouldn't climb even higher?

 

Crede is a mystery.  They should've expected him to improve, he regressed.

 

Same with Garland, they rightfully expected improvement from him and didn't get it.  They expected too much from Harris IMO, and are now disappointed they didn't get it.

 

On the other hand, we have a guy like Rowand who is thriving.  He's a guy who didn't buy into the built in excuse of "we lost our 3-4 hitters, we're toast".  He just went out and improved and did the job.  If any of us had been told Aaron Rowand would be the FT CF and will be hitting .320 with 20 HR's on Sept. 1st, we would've all said "print my playoff tickets".

 

Harrelson made a very astute comment last night, when Valentin struck out on a high fastball from Harden.  He said, "I know it's easier to say than do, but you cannot let yourself get beat on high fastballs from Harden.  It's a fairly easy pitch to recognize, you won't catch up to it upstairs, you've got to make him get the ball down."  Clearly, he was disgusted that a veteran like Valentin didn't have a better game plan for the at bat.

 

I have learned a lot this year from watching the little things.  I can see more clearly now who's smart and who isn't ... who can make adjustments from at bat to at bat, or even within an at bat.  Further, who is WILLING to do it.  Same with the pitchers ... do they have the brains and willingness to make adjustments when a hitter figures them out?

 

Bottom line, we have some guys who can't - Borchard is a good example.

 

It appears we have some guys who won't - Crede and Valentin as examples.

 

It also appears we have some guys who will - Rowand comes to mind, also Thomas when he's healthy.

 

As for pitching, we have some guys who are good at adjustments - Buehrle, Garcia.  Contreras hasn't had to do that in his career but we are at least seeing progress.

 

Guys who, to me, have demonstrated they're not bright enough to make adjustments or are unwilling to do so include Garland, Politte, Diaz.

 

The sooner Williams identifies the "I can and I will" from the "I can't and/or I won't", the better off this team will be.

A GREAT POST!!!!!

[winninguglyin83]

Superb post JimH

 

We need some folks in the Sox system who can sit down and honestly evaluate players.

 

The two things that concern me just as much as the way this team played are:

 

a.) the absolute failure of every pitcher who has been promoted from the minor leagues. I don't if these guys simply are not good enough or if they are not being developed properly, but it's maddeningly to see Rauch, Diaz, Stewart, Munoz, Grilli and the others all get rocked game after game. Something ain't right. We need some new folks working with our minor leaguers.

 

b.) the lack of legitimate prospects in our system. I know we have traded away a ton of guys. But Charlotte has NOBODY who will rank in the Top 20 in the International League. It's all career minor leaguers who aren't going to do a thing to help the Sox. Birmingham has a few guys -- Anderson, Spidale, Yan, McCarthy, Ulacia. But most of our prospects are in High A ball or lower.

 

If we're going to remain tight-fisted and not spend real money on players or retaining players (like Gordon, Colon, Ordonez and others) then we have to be stronger in player development.

 

Otherwise, we're doomed.

[LDF]

we are not doom, this part of my reply has been mention several times before in other threads.

 

the sox is loosing what in salary, after that what the sox has invested for next yr, take that and add what we are going to save on the possible trade of who, clee and/or pk. last is what kw have said that in addition jr has given him a 20-25 mil in extra money for next yr improvement.

 

bottom line is the scenery is there for free wheeling kw to do something.

[winninguglyin83]

I hope you're right.

 

good luck finding another Ordonez.

 

I don't see it.

[LDF]

I hope you're right.

 

good luck finding another Ordonez.

 

I don't see it.

then what is your suggestion that we should do?

[3E8]

then what is your suggestion that we should do?

Build the team around pitching instead of offense.

[LDF]

Build the team around pitching instead of offense.

i think he was ref to the offense part of the team as in mags.

 

but yeah there is a talent of pitchers out there to be had in the fa market.

[WSoxShuf]

I think the base of our team needs to go. I watch all these teams with less talent who don't rely on the long ball.

 

We need speed,defense and pitcihng.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Jim H, good stuff, best I've read in the short time I've been here.

[Guest JimH]

then what is your suggestion that we should do?

I'll take a stab at this.

 

I will take it position by position ...

 

And all of this is predicated on the Sox wanting to win at least the division in '05.

 

RF: I would try to sign Maggs to an incentive laden 1 yr. deal or an incentive laden 3 year deal. If Maggs is healthy and produces he wins big and so do we. If he's not healthy, we are not on the hook for much. If Maggs and his agent don't like this scenario, we move in a different direction.

 

CF: I'd leave Rowand there until Anderson forces the Sox to make a decision. That won't happen until 2006.

 

LF: I'd leave Lee there, he's just coming into his prime and he's at the very least comparable to the best LF in the American league. Better than most.

 

3B: Explore the market for Crede, this is where the Sox will get the most return. He's had a down year but he has value. Go for a stud bullpen arm and maybe another good reserve player. I think the Sox can get this for Crede.

 

SS: End the Valentin era. Aim higher than Vizquel, but sign him if he's the best guy available to the Sox. Immediately, and I mean right now, make a priority in every single trade that's made to land a SS prospect. Collect two or three. Draft two or three. Let's get this thing solved.

 

2B: Play Uribe there a lot, while also using him as a super sub guy who can back up at 3B and SS. Uribe should play 140 games next year, let's see if he can progress, or if he'll regress ala Crede. I think he'll make progress.

 

1B: Konerko and Gload are ok but you've got to see if you can upgrade here too. If you can move Konerko for a ready-to-go prospect (which I doubt) or you can get the right amount of pitching for him, do it. Gload? Whatever. He is a 25th guy, has done well for the Sox, but I won't cry one way or the other. Decent reserve guys can be found.

 

Catching: Davis, Burke, and get a 3rd guy as the utility guy who can catch in a pinch. Ryan Hankins? Sandy Alomar = coach or minor league manager.

 

Starting Pitching: Sign a free agent who is at least #2 or #3 caliber. Keep Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras (no brainer). Explore the market for Garland. If trading him and Crede nets you significant assets, do it. Believe me, there is a big market for both Crede and Garland. If you can't get exactly what you want for Garland, he stays as your #5.

 

Relief Pitching: I agree with Don Cooper. Shingo has done a great job for this team, pick up his option but have him as back up closer and use him in the 7th or 8th or in a situational role. If we count on him as closer in '05, he'll burn out. He's not used to this long of a season and he's 35-36. Also, launch Politte. Tries hard, can't throw enough strikes. Make sure you get a power arm in return for whomever you trade. Give Bajenaru a long look. Keep Marte. Either keep Cotts as the other lefty or bring one in if Cotts is a guy who goes in trade. Munoz "could" be your other left handed guy, he's better suited to relief. Adkins is ok as long relief but put him on a short leash and have serious competition in spring.

 

Managing: Guillen has done ok, the chemistry appears to be better. He needs to get a little LaRussa in him though. Don't let this team get pushed around. Being the pascifist didn't work too well, although I understood where he was coming from but didn't agree. Chicago fans like a hard nosed bunch anyways.

 

MOST Important: Get this minor league instructional situation under control. They are not teaching these kids to play the right way - someone in this thread says we have guys come up who still don't know what to do, whether it's pitchers who don't perform or position players who have brain cramps. Find out what the Twins do and model it. Find out what Oakland does and model it.

[LDF]

jim i agree with about 90% of what you wrote and when i come back i will address what i don't agree with.

 

btw a great post.

 

the one prob i see is if we look into the fa market, we are going to loose our draft pick and base on how this team is ending, this may be the yr that the sox may pick in the top 10.

 

when was the last time the sox pick in the top 10?

[The Critic]

when was the last time the sox pick in the top 10?

I read it was 1990, Alex Fernandez.

[WSoxShuf]

Here is my analysis of what we can do.

 

C- Ben Davis and burke are very fine for next year.

1b- I really want us to move Lee there, I think Paullie should be dangled by way of trade

2b- Uribe

SS- One of the areas we need to spend the money.

3b- Crede, I think the organization has too much vested interest in him.

 

LF/RF Borchard/Anderson Sweeney for one of the positions. The other fielder should be free agency.

CF AROW

 

pitching

1. burly,freddy,jose

free agent,free agent.

 

Relievers

Shingo/Cliff/Cotts/Marte/Free agents.

[greasywheels121]

I read it was 1990, Alex Fernandez.

A drought of 15 years without a top 10 draft pick is the longest in the bigs.

[Guest JimH]

the one prob i see is if we look into the fa market, we are going to loose our draft pick and base on how this team is ending, this may be the yr that the sox may pick in the top 10.

Yes, big issue and I agree with you on this. Some of the guys they might sign can be "B" level free agents which means you give up a 2nd rounder instead. All of this is something they've gotta think about.

 

One thing for sure, if they retool this team like they say they will, one or more of the young players on the team will be traded.

[Yossarian]

I'll take a stab at this.

 

I will take it position by position ...

 

And all of this is predicated on the Sox wanting to win at least the division in '05.

 

RF:  I would try to sign Maggs to an incentive laden 1 yr. deal or an incentive laden 3 year deal.  If Maggs is healthy and produces he wins big and so do we.  If he's not healthy, we are not on the hook for much.  If Maggs and his agent don't like this scenario, we move in a different direction.

 

CF:  I'd leave Rowand there until Anderson forces the Sox to make a decision.  That won't happen until 2006.

 

LF:  I'd leave Lee there, he's just coming into his prime and he's at the very least comparable to the best LF in the American league.  Better than most.

 

3B:  Explore the market for Crede, this is where the Sox will get the most return.  He's had a down year but he has value.  Go for a stud bullpen arm and maybe another good reserve player.  I think the Sox can get this for Crede.

 

SS:  End the Valentin era. Aim higher than Vizquel, but sign him if he's the best guy available to the Sox.  Immediately, and I mean right now, make a priority in every single trade that's made to land a SS prospect.  Collect two or three.  Draft two or three.  Let's get this thing solved.

 

2B:  Play Uribe there a lot, while also using him as a super sub guy who can back up at 3B and SS.  Uribe should play 140 games next year, let's see if he can progress, or if he'll regress ala Crede.  I think he'll make progress.

 

1B:  Konerko and Gload are ok but you've got to see if you can upgrade here too.  If you can move Konerko for a ready-to-go prospect (which I doubt) or you can get the right amount of pitching for him, do it.  Gload?  Whatever.  He is a 25th guy, has done well for the Sox, but I won't cry one way or the other.  Decent reserve guys can be found.

 

Catching:  Davis, Burke, and get a 3rd guy as the utility guy who can catch in a pinch.  Ryan Hankins?  Sandy Alomar = coach or minor league manager.

 

Starting Pitching:  Sign a free agent who is at least #2 or #3 caliber.  Keep Buerhle, Garcia, Contreras (no brainer).  Explore the market for Garland.  If trading him and Crede nets you significant assets, do it.  Believe me, there is a big market for both Crede and Garland.  If you can't get exactly what you want for Garland, he stays as your #5.

 

Relief Pitching:  I agree with Don Cooper.  Shingo has done a great job for this team, pick up his option but have him as back up closer and use him in the 7th or 8th or in a situational role.  If we count on him as closer in '05, he'll burn out.  He's not used to this long of  a season and he's 35-36.  Also, launch Politte.  Tries hard, can't throw enough strikes.  Make sure you get a power arm in return for whomever you trade.  Give Bajenaru a long look.  Keep Marte.  Either keep Cotts as the other lefty or bring one in if Cotts is a guy who goes in trade.  Munoz "could" be your other left handed guy, he's better suited to relief.  Adkins is ok as long relief but put him on a short leash and have serious competition in spring.

 

Managing:  Guillen has done ok, the chemistry appears to be better.  He needs to get a little LaRussa in him though.  Don't let this team get pushed around.  Being the pascifist didn't work too well, although I understood where he was coming from but didn't agree.  Chicago fans like a hard nosed bunch anyways.

 

MOST Important:  Get this minor league instructional situation under control.  They are not teaching these kids to play the right way - someone in this thread says we have guys come up who still don't know what to do, whether it's pitchers who don't perform or position players who have brain cramps.  Find out what the Twins do and model it.  Find out what Oakland does and model it.

Wow. There is so much BS, superficiality, invective and just general nonsense on message boards and then there is you. Another mighty fine post. I agree with just about everything except Uribe, and looking at our options there, you may be right about that too. Do you have any clout with Sox management? That is a plan here my friends, and a workable one at that. First two are on me should we ever meet. I've been thinking that the Sox are sliding and looking at a 86-89 scenario or even worse a 68-70. This type of thinking gives us a fighting chance at least. Especially the very last paragraph.