AnthraxFan93 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Does not matter if you are a fan of garcia or not, it does ''hold ground.'' It is the same exact concept. At the time of the Garica for RJ deal.. Garica was in the minors at the time of the deal. SO that holds no ground. As was Lowe at the time of his trade. Clement both times was in the majors.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Clement's numbers over the past 3 seasons at hitting friendly Wrigley Field. 2002 - 12-11, 3.60 ERA, 85 BB's, 215 K's. 2003 - 14-12, 4.11 ERA, 79 BB's, 171 K's. 2004 - 9-13, 3.68 ERA, 77 BB's, 190 K's. And here are Lowe's over the past 3 seasons. 2002 - 21-8, 2.58 ERA, 48 BB's, 127 K's. 2003 - 17-7, 4.47 ERA, 72 BB's, 110 K's. 2004 - 14-12, 5.42 ERA, 71 BB's, 105 K's. Judging by these numbers it seems that Lowe has regressed over a 3 year period. His number of walks has increased, and this is due to him using his best pitch, the sinker, over and over again. Lowe was most successful when he started using all of his pitches. He may be a big game pitcher, but for at least $8 million dollars over 3 to 4 years, which is what his agent Scott Bora$$ is going to want, Lowe seems to be too much of a risk. He'll probably sign with Detroit with Mike Illitch overpaying for deals already this offseason. Clement on the other hand could sign a deal worth only about 5 or 6 million annually over a 2 to 3 year period. The key here is whether or not the Cubs decide to offer him arbitration, if they don't look for the White Sox and Blue Jays to really go after him at the Winter Meetings in December. With the extra money we would possibly save by signing Clement instead of Lowe, it could be the difference between us signing another big name like Nomar or Renteria, or signing or trading for a bullpen guy like Urbina. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSFAN35 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Realistically, I think we're looking at something like this: 1.Garcia 2.Buerhle 3.Clement/Perez 4.Contreras 5.Garland C.Takatsu S.Nelson S.Marte M.Politte M.Cotts L.Diaz CF Rowand 2B Polanco/Walker LF Lee DH Thomas 1B Konerko RF Everett SS Uribe C Davis 3B Crede Bench Harris Gload Burke Escobar Perez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 At the time of the Garica for RJ deal.. Garica was in the minors at the time of the deal. SO that holds no ground. As was Lowe at the time of his trade. Clement both times was in the majors.. Who cares whether he was in the minor leagues or not? Each of their roles in both trades was the exact same...a young starting pitcher with excellent stuff. What do you not see in that? :banghead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Who cares whether he was in the minor leagues or not? Each of their roles in both trades was the exact same...a young starting pitcher with excellent stuff. What do you not see in that? :banghead It matters a great deal if he was in the minors/majors.. How many minor league players have been traded for big names, and then you never hear about those prosecpts again? My point still is, and always has.. Clement has been on 3 differnet teams and 2 gave up on him.. that should tell you something.. We had one of those players in Todd Ritchie here, as well as Jamie Navaro.. And Clement falls into that type player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 It matters a great deal if he was in the minors/majors.. How many minor league players have been traded for big names, and then you never hear about those prosecpts again? My point still is, and always has.. Clement has been on 3 differnet teams and 2 gave up on him.. that should tell you something.. We had one of those players in Todd Ritchie here, as well as Jamie Navaro.. And Clement falls into that type player. Boston were desperate to move Lowe in the 1st half of the 2004 season because he was pitching so bad, I believe he had an ERA above 6, but there was aboslutely no market for him at all because of the amount of money he was making. 2 teams gave up on Clement because he wasn't producing for San Diego and Florida, the numbers show that, but for the last 3 seasons, he has 3 good seasons for the Cubs. It doesn't look like the Cubs want to give up on him, considering the injury problems they've had with Prior and Wood, and they could very well offer Clement arbitration, so they at least get the 2 draft picks if a team like Toronto signs him. Nobody is going to sign him until after Dec. 9 most likely though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I wouldn't mind Lowe or Clement. As others have mentioned Odalis would be a solid pickup also. As a side note I have heard basically nothing about Perez this offseason, what teams are interested in him??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I wouldn't mind Lowe or Clement. As others have mentioned Odalis would be a solid pickup also. As a side note I have heard basically nothing about Perez this offseason, what teams are interested in him??? There's been no mention of Perez this off-season as far as teams interested etc. Frankly I can't believe he'll probably end up with a lower contract than Eric Milton (3 years, $21 million with the Yanks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 There's been no mention of Perez this off-season as far as teams interested etc. Frankly I can't believe he'll probably end up with a lower contract than Eric Milton (3 years, $21 million with the Yanks). I do not really understand why the yankee$ ae not going after perez over milton. It's not like they do not have the money. I think it is fairly easy to say who is the better pitcher between the two. I have only heard like two reports that the yakee$ have had any interest in perez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I'm sure his implosion in the playoff's against the Cardinals has something to do with it. The Yankees need guys who are going to perform in the big games. Perez didn't exactly inspire the confidence he could do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 It matters a great deal if he was in the minors/majors.. How many minor league players have been traded for big names, and then you never hear about those prosecpts again? My point still is, and always has.. Clement has been on 3 differnet teams and 2 gave up on him.. that should tell you something.. We had one of those players in Todd Ritchie here, as well as Jamie Navaro.. And Clement falls into that type player. Jamie Navarro maybe holds a little ground. Ritchie holds no ground whatsoever. Minnesota gave up on him, true. Pittsburgh did not, however. They were overwhelmed with an offer and could not turn it down. Get a couple good young starters plus a decent bullpen arm for a guy who went 11-15 with you the previous year with an ERA of 4.47? A guy who has had one good year in his career? Anybody makes that move in a heartbeat. FWIW...I do not want Clement either. There is too much risk for injury with him and that nasty slider of his, and he was very mediocre in the second half of the year, going 2-5, 5.09 ERA, 1.46 WHIP, K/9 of 9, BB/9 of 4.5, K/BB of 2 while allowing around 2 homers per 9 IP or so...just to put it into perspective, he gave up 10 homers in 117.3 innings in the first half and he gave up 13 homers in 63.6 innings in the second half. I want no piece of Clement. I do think there is a good chance something is wrong with his arm right now, and he probably will need to go under the knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 My point still is, and always has.. Clement has been on 3 differnet teams and 2 gave up on him.. that should tell you something.. We had one of those players in Todd Ritchie here, as well as Jamie Navaro.. And Clement falls into that type player. And those two teams that gave up on him are kicking themselves now. This scouting report pretty much sums up how I feel about Clement: Matt Clement, SP: His stuff can be electric, but Clement has lacked the pitching smarts and poise to get the most out of it. He's at the stage now (30 years old, with a 69-75 career record and 1,156 1/3 innings) where he should show some polish. His strikeouts per nine innings the past three years are indicative of his stuff (9.4, 7.6, 9.5). He's the same age as Kris Benson with a better track record and more durability, but should come cheaper than Benson's $22.5 million, three-year deal with the Mets. Furthermore, he nearly put it all together last year, but he had a bad month of August and an absolutely terrible month in September. Before the AS break: IP: 117 ERA: 2.17 WHIP: 1.18 OBA: .217 K: 123 Looks like an all star to me...I dunno. But after the AS break: IP: 63 ERA: 5.09 WHIP: 1.46 OBA: .250 K: 67 Now, someone refresh my memory. I seem to recall Clement being injured somewhat in the second half, but I can't recall what the extent of it was. I'd love to see this guy in a Sox uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Now, someone refresh my memory. I seem to recall Clement being injured somewhat in the second half, but I can't recall what the extent of it was. Alot of muscle stiffness in his back and neck throughout the second half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I want no piece of Clement. I do think there is a good chance something is wrong with his arm right now, and he probably will need to go under the knife. i don't know if there is or if there isn't but i wouldn't take that risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 i don't know if there is or if there isn't but i wouldn't take that risk. The Cubs were claiming it was just a trapezius strain which effected his upper throwing arm. If the Sox are seriously considering Clement, a complete, 2nd party physical before signing should be part of the talks with his agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 The Cubs were claiming it was just a trapezius strain which effected his upper throwing arm. If the Sox are seriously considering Clement, a complete, 2nd party physical before signing should be part of the talks with his agent. Agreed very much. I want no part of him...I just said that above. But if we were to sign him, another physical would need to be done. No way I want to just sign this guy with the second half he had last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Agreed very much. I want no part of him...I just said that above. But if we were to sign him, another physical would need to be done. No way I want to just sign this guy with the second half he had last year. I do like the fact that Clement seems to want to be here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 I do like the fact that Clement seems to want to be here... I also like the fact that he has taken it to the Sox in interleague games. And I looove his sinker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 hammerhead johnson, after looking at the numbers I further tell everyone not to take clement. We don't need another player, to fade down the stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 hammerhead johnson, after looking at the numbers I further tell everyone not to take clement. We don't need another player, to fade down the stretch. Isn't that what Javier Vazquez did this season though? No doubt the Sox need to be sure that if they sign or acquire 1 of those 2 guys, to take all the physicals they need to make sure something isn't wrong with their arms. We don't want another Dan Wright situation on our hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Isn't that what Javier Vazquez did this season though? No doubt the Sox need to be sure that if they sign or acquire 1 of those 2 guys, to take all the physicals they need to make sure something isn't wrong with their arms. We don't want another Dan Wright situation on our hands. Agreed Vaquez did fade, but I have a feeling the pressure of NY is what got to him. There was a great deal made out of Vaquez going to NY, and how he was helping NY going to the promise land.. He would not have that here since even the local media doesn't realize that there is baseball team on 35th and Sheilds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Agreed Vaquez did fade, but I have a feeling the pressure of NY is what got to him. There was a great deal made out of Vaquez going to NY, and how he was helping NY going to the promise land.. He would not have that here since even the local media doesn't realize that there is baseball team on 35th and Sheilds. I've found these things on Vazquez's problems; I actually don't think that Vazquez's problems in the second half had to do with either the move to New York or the move to the American League. After posting 10 wins with a 3.54 ERA in the first half of the season, the whole Montreal-to-New York thing was irrelevant. The poor guy had to answer all of those questions all spring, then early in the season, so winning 10 games before the break showed people that the big stage didn't bother him. So what happened to Vazquez? From all indications, his mechanics simply fell out of whack. He started throwing from a different arm angle, which affected the movement on his ball. As the second half went on, he continued to tinker with his delivery, trying to correct the problem, but things only seemed to get worse. Vazquez was more frustrated with himself than anyone, and he plans to report to the Yankees' training complex in Tampa in January to get a jump on Spring Training. Look for better things from the 28-year-old right-hander this season -- assuming he hasn't been traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Agreed Vaquez did fade, but I have a feeling the pressure of NY is what got to him. There was a great deal made out of Vaquez going to NY, and how he was helping NY going to the promise land.. He would not have that here since even the local media doesn't realize that there is baseball team on 35th and Sheilds. Yeah he had the pressure of a 10 game lead on a team with 20 all-stars. :rolly It could easily be argued that the Cubs and subsequently Clement were under much more pressure than Vazquez and the Yankees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthraxFan93 Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 It could easily be argued that the Cubs and subsequently Clement were under much more pressure than Vazquez and the Yankees. Why is that? Everyone knows it was Stoney and Carry fault that they dodn't make it to the playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.