Jeff Brantly on Baseball Tonite puts the whole Koch fiasco and failure in the lap of Jerry Manuel. Said when Koch struggled early he should have been nurtured and brought along into situations that he would succeed in and build up his confidence. Instead, Manuel pushed him aside until he lost his confidence, his mechanics and his fastball, and now he is lost.

 

Why not blame it on Koch screwing up? Why must a grown man be nutured..? Why not blame the pitching coach?

 

Everything is not JM's fault, MO of course..

I'm not sure nurturing would have made him find his heater. He never had it this year, so I don't think you can say it was lost due to Manuel's handling.

Koch is g3tting better

Koch is g3tting better

Yeah he only gave up 1 run to lose against the Tigers on Thursday!

I saw that bit on BBTN, and I thought Brantley sounded like a buffoon. He actually said that Koch was throwing in the high nineties, was uncomfortable with a new team, got hit a few times, and JM caused him to lose confidence AND velocity. Brantley writes his own material, I am certain, because nobody else would be dumb enough to come up with that s***.

I saw that bit on BBTN, and I thought Brantley sounded like a buffoon.  He actually said that Koch was throwing in the high nineties, was uncomfortable with a new team, got hit a few times, and JM caused him to lose confidence AND velocity.  Brantley writes his own material, I am certain, becasuse nobody else would be dumb enough to come up with that s***.

Ditto, he is an idiot like I said on the other thread.

 

Basically, he is only on Baseball Tonight when Harold, Bobby, Gammons, Dibble or Kurkjan can't appear. He's about a fifth stringer for that show and has no insight as to what is going on whatsoever.

he just loves koch cuz he was a s***ty closer just like koch with one or two good seasons

I blame JM for alot of things. But Botch sucking ass isn't one of them.

You, there...everyone....lets all blame the 2003 White Sox' problems on Billy Koch!!! Now that our other scapegoat, Jimenez is gone, we MUST lay the blame somewhere!!! Koch is having some troubles, yes, but I'll be damned if I think its right to say s*** like, "Thursdays loss was Koch's fault." Bulls***. Check Fatass #40, and the rookie named David Sanders...check those 9 runs, and tell me that its Koch's fault.

Ditto, he is an idiot like I said on the other thread.

 

Basically, he is only on Baseball Tonight when Harold, Bobby, Gammons, Dibble or Kurkjan can't appear.  He's about a fifth stringer for that show and has no insight as to what is going on whatsoever.

I didn't see the BBTN broadcast, but Brantley never has impressed me in the past shows. Koch has never been effective this year that I can remember can anyone else? I don't think he has ever shown the 100 MPH fastball he is so famous for. Plain and simple the trade for Foulke was bad.

Ditto, he is an idiot like I said on the other thread.

 

Basically, he is only on Baseball Tonight when Harold, Bobby, Gammons, Dibble or Kurkjan can't appear.  He's about a fifth stringer for that show and has no insight as to what is going on whatsoever.

I didn't see the BBTN broadcast, but Brantley never has impressed me in the past shows. Koch has never been effective this year that I can remember can anyone else? I don't think he has ever shown the 100 MPH fastball he is so famous for. Plain and simple the trade for Foulke was bad.

The trade was for economics, plain and simple....if KW doesn't make that trade, Foulke is here for 2003...then he walks...doesnt matter how much money you show him(which with JR, wouldn't have happened anyway). So then we have no closer, and nothing to show for Foulkes time here. So we trade him, get what looks on paper like a workhorse closer with serious heat, AND a pretty good lefty pitcher too. We sign Koch now, avoid the arbitration that would have come wth Foulke (and he wouldnt have accepted), and all looks well. Now, the problem is, obviously Koch has been severly overworked my Oakland and Toronto in his past. This I DO blame KW for. Closers don't pitch the amount that Koch has in his MLB career so far. Everyone forgets that there is NO WAY IN HELL that Foulke was gonna stay here any longer than he had to.

I saw that bit on BBTN, and I thought Brantley sounded like a buffoon.  He actually said that Koch was throwing in the high nineties, was uncomfortable with a new team, got hit a few times, and JM caused him to lose confidence AND velocity.  Brantley writes his own material, I am certain, because nobody else would be dumb enough to come up with that s***.

I don't think Brantley even watched because there was that game where Koch was taken out and he got pissed.

 

The guy is a closer and he has that mentality and he knows if he blows games he'll go right back out the next one and save it.

 

I do think he's really pissed right now about it, but I think he respects Manuel because he kept letting him go out and try to get the job done.

 

I think since that didn't work, Jerry told Billy, were gonna let you work in the middle innings so you can comfortably get yourself back (Ala Foulke last year) and then when you feel right, come talk to me, and we'll see what happens.

Ditto, he is an idiot like I said on the other thread.

 

Basically, he is only on Baseball Tonight when Harold, Bobby, Gammons, Dibble or Kurkjan can't appear.  He's about a fifth stringer for that show and has no insight as to what is going on whatsoever.

Brantley is such a goon. Everytime he opens his mouth you can tell he doesn't watch enough games to comment.

Ditto, he is an idiot like I said on the other thread.

 

Basically, he is only on Baseball Tonight when Harold, Bobby, Gammons, Dibble or Kurkjan can't appear.  He's about a fifth stringer for that show and has no insight as to what is going on whatsoever.

I didn't see the BBTN broadcast, but Brantley never has impressed me in the past shows. Koch has never been effective this year that I can remember can anyone else? I don't think he has ever shown the 100 MPH fastball he is so famous for. Plain and simple the trade for Foulke was bad.

The trade was for economics, plain and simple....if KW doesn't make that trade, Foulke is here for 2003...then he walks...doesnt matter how much money you show him(which with JR, wouldn't have happened anyway). So then we have no closer, and nothing to show for Foulkes time here. So we trade him, get what looks on paper like a workhorse closer with serious heat, AND a pretty good lefty pitcher too. We sign Koch now, avoid the arbitration that would have come wth Foulke (and he wouldnt have accepted), and all looks well. Now, the problem is, obviously Koch has been severly overworked my Oakland and Toronto in his past. This I DO blame KW for. Closers don't pitch the amount that Koch has in his MLB career so far. Everyone forgets that there is NO WAY IN HELL that Foulke was gonna stay here any longer than he had to.

Remember, Foulke too, had thrown a ton of innings over the past few years. I think he was amongst the top few in the majors.

Ditto, he is an idiot like I said on the other thread.

 

Basically, he is only on Baseball Tonight when Harold, Bobby, Gammons, Dibble or Kurkjan can't appear.  He's about a fifth stringer for that show and has no insight as to what is going on whatsoever.

I didn't see the BBTN broadcast, but Brantley never has impressed me in the past shows. Koch has never been effective this year that I can remember can anyone else? I don't think he has ever shown the 100 MPH fastball he is so famous for. Plain and simple the trade for Foulke was bad.

The trade was for economics, plain and simple....if KW doesn't make that trade, Foulke is here for 2003...then he walks...doesnt matter how much money you show him(which with JR, wouldn't have happened anyway). So then we have no closer, and nothing to show for Foulkes time here. So we trade him, get what looks on paper like a workhorse closer with serious heat, AND a pretty good lefty pitcher too. We sign Koch now, avoid the arbitration that would have come wth Foulke (and he wouldnt have accepted), and all looks well. Now, the problem is, obviously Koch has been severly overworked my Oakland and Toronto in his past. This I DO blame KW for. Closers don't pitch the amount that Koch has in his MLB career so far. Everyone forgets that there is NO WAY IN HELL that Foulke was gonna stay here any longer than he had to.

Remember, Foulke too, had thrown a ton of innings over the past few years. I think he was amongst the top few in the majors.

But also remember, Jason, that Foulkes 85 mph heater and 79 mph change can IN NO WAY do the same arm damage as trying to reach back and throw the ball 99+ mph every time....that takes its toll on ANY arm..ask Trevor Hoffman, Matt Anderson, etc...

Hoffman doesn't throw 99, but you have a very valid point. Foulke is basically a Hoffman clone. In his hay day Hoffman could hit 94, but for the past 4 years or so he's been around 89-90.

 

What I've noticed with Foulke this year, is he greatly improved his other pitches. He doesn't throw the changeup near as much. He's been throwing more curves and more sliders. I'm thinking he'll walk and try to start somewhere. He has enough money and I think he wants to see if he can do it.

Hoffman doesn't throw 99, but you have a very valid point.  Foulke is basically a Hoffman clone.  In his hay day Hoffman could hit 94, but for the past 4 years or so he's been around 89-90. 

 

What I've noticed with Foulke this year, is he greatly improved his other pitches.  He doesn't throw the changeup near as much.  He's been throwing more curves and more sliders.  I'm thinking he'll walk and try to start somewhere.  He has enough money and I think he wants to see if he can do it.

Who was it, Hoffman or Wagner, that used to be a flamethrower, but had to totally rediscover the art of closing using offspeed pitching?

Neither. Wagner still throws 98 MPH or so while Hoffman was always a changeup-fastball pitcher and he never depended on a hard fastball. He was at his prime 94 MPH and now is 90 and I've never heard anything about that.

 

I'd love to see Koch become as good as Wagner or Hoffman though.

You, there...everyone....lets all blame the 2003 White Sox' problems on Billy Koch!!! Now that our other scapegoat, Jimenez is gone, we MUST lay the blame somewhere!!! Koch is having some troubles, yes, but I'll be damned if I think its right to say s*** like, "Thursdays loss was Koch's fault." Bulls***. Check Fatass #40, and the rookie named David Sanders...check those 9 runs, and tell me that its Koch's fault.

Umm capn.. I'm not sure you understood. He was blaming MANUEL for Koch's problems. Koch get blamed... noooo.

Great post, Steff.

I heard Brantley say that too.

Geez ... how can he blame Koch's miseries on Manuel?

Koch has sucked because of Koch.

Jeff Brantly on Baseball Tonite puts the whole Koch fiasco and failure in the lap of Jerry Manuel.  Said when Koch struggled early he should have been nurtured and brought along into situations that he would succeed in and build up his confidence. Instead, Manuel pushed him aside until he lost his confidence, his mechanics and his fastball, and now he is lost.

 

Why not blame it on Koch screwing up? Why must a grown man be nutured..? Why not blame the pitching coach?

 

Everything is not JM's fault, MO of course..

botch was lost before he got here... and he opened his big mouth one too many times....karma????? surely not jm's fault that this one blew up all over the place........

Great post, Steff.

I heard Brantley say that too.

Geez ... how can he blame Koch's miseries on Manuel?

Koch has sucked because of Koch.

Thanks Greg!

 

Now is the time I get reeeeeaalllyy into listening to the talk.

 

And just for the heck of it I pulled out my "we just might be dumb enough to win this thing" compliments of Robin in 1997. Maybe it'll bring us some good luck...

I don't think Brantley even watched because there was that game where Koch was taken out and he got pissed.

 

The guy is a closer and he has that mentality and he knows if he blows games he'll go right back out the next one and save it.

 

I do think he's really pissed right now about it, but I think he respects Manuel because he kept letting him go out and try to get the job done. 

 

I think since that didn't work, Jerry told Billy, were gonna let you work in the middle innings so you can comfortably get yourself back (Ala Foulke last year) and then when you feel right, come talk to me, and we'll see what happens.

If you are right in your thoughts on the matter, let's hope that Jerry Manuel doesn't make the same mistake he made with Foulke. I don't doubt that Koch is a battler and wants to do his best, etc, etc but the bottom line is he is not doing the job for whatever reason. I am still not convinced it's NOT an injury. On the other hand Foulke is a 2003 all-star pitcher and recovered from whatever his first half of 2002 problems were. Hopefully Koch will also recover in the 2nd half.

I think Kenny expressed my feelings best.

 

"We didnt get Billy Koch we could have a curveball coming out of the bullpen...you expect him to come in and throw 96"

 

or something along those lines.

I think Kenny expressed my feelings best.

 

"We didnt get Billy Koch we could have a curveball coming out of the bullpen...you expect him to come in and throw 96"

 

or something along those lines.

expecting him to throw 96 and him doing it have been two different things though.........