My previous thread about Gregg Walker's employment was locked.....

 

So here is my positive thread topic to follow on the comment about how Don Cooper has escaped my scrutiny.

 

To this I can say the following......

 

John Danks

 

Gavin Floyd

 

Matt Thornton

 

Bobby Jenks

 

All top line pitchers reclaimed from the scrap heap vs. the agonizing pain that comes from watching White Sox hitting over the last SEVERAL years.

 

And for Coop, I've personally met him. He has coached my son. I've talked with him numerous times over the last several years. He let me try on his world series ring. I believe in his philosophy, his ability to coach and the man himself.

 

Greg Walker? Not so much...

 

Thank you and that is all.

What did Don Cooper have to do with Bobby Jenks? He may have taught him how to throw the cutter, which Jenks has used less than 1% of the time throughout his career, but Jenks was claimed off waivers from the Angels and was converted to a reliever by White Sox brass, and that has been where he's found his success. You really can't credit Cooper with Jenks' success.

What did Don Cooper have to do with Bobby Jenks? He may have taught him how to throw the cutter, which Jenks has used less than 1% of the time throughout his career, but Jenks was claimed off waivers from the Angels and was converted to a reliever by White Sox brass, and that has been where he's found his success. You really can't credit Cooper with Jenks' success.

IIRC Dave Wilder was the one who advised KW to sign Jenks and to bring him up when Hermanson began having injury problems.

Yeah, it would be liking crediting Cooper for Takatsu and Hermanson's half season bursts of success.

 

Maybe Cotts and Politte in 2005?

 

Thornton is usually given as exhibit 1, but Gavin Floyd's looking very shaky again (I remember saying we should trade him or DFA him this time last year and see if any team would assume his contract). 2008, he was great, no doubt.

 

Danks, I'll give you (Cooper) some credit, but I'll also give Mark Buehrle a big portion of praise with getting him to work faster, serving as a role model and examplar.

 

But did he really do anything to help Vazquez, for example? Aarsdma and Sisco? MacDougal? Masset? What about Contreras after 2006? Garland regressed big-time before we parted ways with him. Linebrink? Pena?

 

They ran Rauch out of town, there are conflicting stories about what precipitated that situation turning so ugly in the end.

Garland regressed big-time before we parted ways with him.

Garland put up a 4.23 ERA, 111 ERA+, and 208.1 innings in 2007 before he was traded.

But Garland wasn't very good in 2006....well, the entire rotation regressed and the workload caught up with them, at least that was the theory at the time in August/September of that year.

 

Those 2007 numbers were put up in a very meaningless season, it's not like saying Kip Wells was awesome in 2001 or 2002 for the Pirates, there was some stress in the first half of the season, BUT...the White Sox were eliminated about halfway through and went through the motions except for Wasserman, Gonzalez, Fields and Owens in the 2nd half.

 

 

But Garland wasn't very good in 2006....well, the entire rotation regressed and the workload caught up with them, at least that was the theory at the time in August/September of that year.

You said "Garland regressed big time" before he was traded. This is simply untrue. Even his supposed terrible 2006 season he put up a better ERA, WHIP, ERA+, and W-L record than he did 2002-2004.

Garland was a myth of a "good" pitcher for most of his Sox career.

 

He was really an average fourth starter or great fifth starter with the exception of the World Series season.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that Garland didn't really "take off" to the next level and become anything close to an elite pitcher, as befitting his initial draft status. He's had a good major league career, nothing more, nothing less.

 

So was 2005 just a fluke year, like it was for so much of our team? Was Cooper responsible for the success, but not also the failures of 2006/2007/2009 and so far this season?

Edited May 5, 201015 yr by caulfield12

Garland was a myth of a "good" pitcher for most of his Sox career.

 

He was really an average fourth starter or great fifth starter with the exception of the World Series season.

In the AL, an average 4th/5th starter puts up an ERA of over 5.5. An average #2 starter puts up an ERA in the 4.25-4.5 range. If he's your #4-#5 starter, you simply have a really, really good pitching staff.

 

Okay, fair enough.

 

Would you trade Gavin Floyd to the Padres for Jon Garland or Clayton Richard right now?

Okay, fair enough.

 

Would you trade Gavin Floyd to the Padres for Jon Garland or Clayton Richard right now?

 

HELL NO.

I wouldn't say that John Danks came "off the scrap heap." He was a first round draft pick, and was still very raw, but it's not like he was a complete nobody.

this post is absolutely dead on.

 

does Coop fix every single problem, no, but his success rate is very high, very acceptable, and very much appreciated by this fan.

 

Name me a player who consistently progressed offensively under Walker (even plotted as a best fit curve if you have to).

 

There's also a tendency for good/great hitters to open strong with the Sox then regress sequentially under Walker, Quentin case in point, Beckham case in point, ARam case in point. I also look at an "unfixable" Uribe who has had two career years at the plate in SF. And I simply don't want to hear about Q's injury/attitude, Beck's soph slump, Uribe in natl league pitching.... no excuses.

Edited May 7, 201015 yr by stretchstretch

My whole point was that if Walker was going to get lambasted every time 3 or 4 guys are hitting under .200, then Cooper should also get grief because over 3/4s of the starting staff has an ERA above 5.00.

My whole point was that if Walker was going to get lambasted every time 3 or 4 guys are hitting under .200, then Cooper should also get grief because over 3/4s of the starting staff has an ERA above 5.00.

 

Walker is not getting blasted for momentary lapses of production but years strung together of guys regressing, IMO that's a big big difference. and when the outlook on a pitcher wasn't good, and they jettisoned the guy, like McCarthy or Garland, the outcome generally followed the belief

this post is absolutely dead on.

 

does Coop fix every single problem, no, but his success rate is very high, very acceptable, and very much appreciated by this fan.

 

Name me a player who consistently progressed offensively under Walker (even plotted as a best fit curve if you have to).

 

There's also a tendency for good/great hitters to open strong with the Sox then regress sequentially under Walker, Quentin case in point, Beckham case in point, ARam case in point. I also look at an "unfixable" Uribe who has had two career years at the plate in SF. And I simply don't want to hear about Q's injury/attitude, Beck's soph slump, Uribe in natl league pitching.... no excuses.

 

You mean like Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye?

My whole point was that if Walker was going to get lambasted every time 3 or 4 guys are hitting under .200, then Cooper should also get grief because over 3/4s of the starting staff has an ERA above 5.00.

 

3/4 of 5 starters?

 

Also, it just occurred to me, but is the title of this thread a reference to the show Hangin' With Mr. Cooper?

3/4 of 5 starters?

 

Also, it just occurred to me, but is the title of this thread a reference to the show Hangin' With Mr. Cooper?

Over 3/4 = about 4/5. Buehrle's straddling the line of 5.00 ERA with his 5.30.

t Gavin Floyd's looking very shaky again (I remember saying we should trade him or DFA him this time last year and see if any team would assume his contract). 2008, he was great, no doubt.

Floyd was much better in 2009 than 2008. And it's not close. He's been wild in 2010, but he's also been unlucky (.385 BABIP).

You mean like Paul Konerko and Jermaine Dye?

 

2007 and 2009 Jermaine Dye called to say they disagree, firmly.....

 

2007 and 2009 Jermaine Dye called to say they disagree, firmly.....

 

Yeah, and those are the years that the organization intervened.