Minor League talent rankings

[NorthSideSox72]

Actually NSS, assuming his birthdate is accurate, he turns 22 during training camp this year.

I thought he was 20 during 2010 season - I guess he was 21, my bad.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I understand that. But we've got a couple guys by the names of Konerko and Dunn that are going to hold down 1B/DH for the next three years. So again, unless he proves otherwise, there's nowhere to play him. Not saying he's untradeable. But it's going to be hard, IMO, to get back maximum value considering the circumstances. And I'm TOTALLY against stashing him in the minors. Maybe to start the year. But unless he really struggles to begin the year, that would be irresponsible on multiple levels.

Well first, a lot can change in a year or two. Morel, Dunn, Konerko, various outfielders... one or more can get injured, traded, fall apart performance-wise, etc.

 

Second, its not like the guy was putting up stupid numbers at AAA - he's 21 (my bad earlier saying 20) and still developing, and a year at AAA to improve his plate discipline and get better defensively at something are very worthwhile. There is nothing irresponsible in giving him another year to develop, with 3 more years still under team control (or is it more?).

 

Third, I don't think that trade value maximization is very tied to how blocked he is. Its much more heavily tied to demand by other teams. I think you are seriously overrating not only 1B versus 3B when he's got a serious bat, but I also think you are choosing an element of trade value way down the list to focus on. His prospective playing capabilities are number 1 regardless of what goes on around him, the needs of the other team are number 2. All else are distant 3rd or lower in consideration.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well first, a lot can change in a year or two. Morel, Dunn, Konerko, various outfielders... one or more can get injured, traded, fall apart performance-wise, etc.

 

Second, its not like the guy was putting up stupid numbers at AAA - he's 21 (my bad earlier saying 20) and still developing, and a year at AAA to improve his plate discipline and get better defensively at something are very worthwhile. There is nothing irresponsible in giving him another year to develop, with 3 more years still under team control (or is it more?).

 

Third, I don't think that trade value maximization is very tied to how blocked he is. Its much more heavily tied to demand by other teams. I think you are seriously overrating not only 1B versus 3B when he's got a serious bat, but I also think you are choosing an element of trade value way down the list to focus on. His prospective playing capabilities are number 1 regardless of what goes on around him, the needs of the other team are number 2. All else are distant 3rd or lower in consideration.

 

Didn't Dayan go nuts after a slow start last year? If he carries that over into next year, I see no reason for him to remain in the minors for more than half a season. And you can't predict injuries. PK and Dunn have both been pretty durable throughout their careers. Obviously we don't know what we have in Morel. And I don't think I'm overrating him being blocked at multiple spots at all. Smart GMs will milk that for as much as it's worth.

[Eminor3rd]

And I don't think I'm overrating him being blocked at multiple spots at all. Smart GMs will milk that for as much as it's worth.

 

Right. The solution to that is, of course, getting more than one needy GM into a bidding war. Don't know how good KW is at doing that.

[Eminor3rd]

I'd REALLY like to see them work the hell out of him (Viciedo) at 3B. Doesn't seem like an impossible position for a world-class athlete to learn to play adequately. Seems like he has a decent arm, and I'll take his lack of range if it means he won't make errors, especially with Alexei's plus range next to him.

[knightni]

You can put on a diving helmet on a chicken and dump it in the ocean, but a month of doing that still won't make it a fish.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You can put on a diving helmet on a chicken and dump it in the ocean, but a month of doing that still won't make it a fish.

 

What the hell is supposed to mean? I expect this from hibis or whatever his name is.

[knightni]

It means that no matter how much Viciedo is in "Camp Cora", he'll still not a 3rd baseman.

[Jordan4life_2007]

It means that no matter how much Viciedo is in "Camp Cora", he'll still not a 3rd baseman.

 

Ahhhh. I didn't know what you were talking about. I agree totally.

[knightni]

Ahhhh. I didn't know what you were talking about. I agree totally.

It's called a parable or allegory.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

It's called a parable or allegory.

 

I know what you meant after you broke it down. I really had no idea what you were talking about before that.

[ScottyDo]

Let me get this straight: we want a strong farm system so we can have replacement-level or greater depth at positions, but if we have a guy who provides just that, with plus-potential, it's bad because he's logjammed? I mean, sure, logjams are not ideal but they're one of the best problems to have. I just think you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here: good prospects provide good replacements in case of injury, but we can't keep him because we have people who aren't currently injured?

 

If we're not gonna get fair value for him, then we should keep him somewhere, possibly the minor leagues (where he still has plenty to prove, IMO). If our logjam is somewhat long term like ours appears to be, then a half-season of bad stats shouldn't be particularly detrimental, because he'll have plenty of time to build value.

[ScottyDo]

Also, under no circumstances do I want Viciedo to be traded for a reliver, unless it's someone truly dominant (not likely), but a right-fielder? Sure. Don't you think Q + Viciedo would net us something significant for RF, were someone available?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Let me get this straight: we want a strong farm system so we can have replacement-level or greater depth at positions, but if we have a guy who provides just that, with plus-potential, it's bad because he's logjammed? I mean, sure, logjams are not ideal but they're one of the best problems to have. I just think you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here: good prospects provide good replacements in case of injury, but we can't keep him because we have people who aren't currently injured?

 

If we're not gonna get fair value for him, then we should keep him somewhere, possibly the minor leagues (where he still has plenty to prove, IMO). If our logjam is somewhat long term like ours appears to be, then a half-season of bad stats shouldn't be particularly detrimental, because he'll have plenty of time to build value.

 

When have the White Sox ever been able to call on their system in-season to compensate for a player injury or poor performance during the KW era? I've been drinking. So a time or two could be alluding me. But I doubt it.

[ScottyDo]

When have the White Sox ever been able to call on their system in-season to compensate for a player injury or poor performance during the KW era? I've been drinking. So a time or two could be alluding me. But I doubt it.

In the past, pretty much never. But they could with Viciedo, that's my point, so there's no hurry to dump him because of a logjam.

[Jordan4life_2007]

In the past, pretty much never. But they could with Viciedo, that's my point, so there's no hurry to dump him because of a logjam.

 

I don't want to dump him at all. Outside of Sale, who I don't even know if he qualifies as a prospect anymore, Mitchell and Viciedo, I loathe the rest of the system. I just want a fair return for Dayan if we ultimately have to trade him.

[Paint it Black]

But that doesn't address the fact that these rankings do not take into account whether or not recent draft picks have actually contributed to the mlb club, which, impliedly, is the entire point of the rankings in the first place.

 

If you're going to make draw an inference that the strength of your farm system is a measure of your drafting ability or your ability to impact your mlb club then you must account for recent draft picks that have contributed to the mlb club ahead of schedule.

My point is that big deal, you drafted no doubter of a middle infielder out of college and "developed him" and a college senior who is destined to be a good pen arm and most likely nothing more. That isn't much to brag about recently. Even if you want to use your method, my point being, the White Sox still rank pretty low. Plus, how do you define "ahead of schedule?" and measure such thing?

 

The best way to measure the contributions of ones farm team is world series flags, rings, and parades. Period.

[Paint it Black]

I'm just saying we're not exactly dealing from a position of strength when other teams know we have nowhere to play him. And I don't buy this camp Cora crap. Josh Fields called and told me it's not really that impactful.

Gordon Beckham and Alexei Ramirez would have called, but they had big league jobs to attend to.

[Balta1701]

My point is that big deal, you drafted no doubter of a middle infielder out of college and "developed him" and a college senior who is destined to be a good pen arm and most likely nothing more. That isn't much to brag about recently. Even if you want to use your method, my point being, the White Sox still rank pretty low. Plus, how do you define "ahead of schedule?" and measure such thing?

 

The best way to measure the contributions of ones farm team is world series flags, rings, and parades. Period.

Here's my way of asking that in reply...which no-doubter middle infielder named Beckham would you rather have from that draft, ours or the one who went #1?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Gordon Beckham and Alexei Ramirez would have called, but they had big league jobs to attend to.

 

Now get back to me when you have a point.

[Paint it Black]

Here's my way of asking that in reply...which no-doubter middle infielder named Beckham would you rather have from that draft, ours or the one who went #1?

Well right now it's no contest. But if the White Sox had the number one pick in 2008, I'll tell you which Beckham they would have drafted, and it would not have been Gordon.

 

Now get back to me when you have a point.

You pointed out that Cora had no impact on Josh Fields' game. I'm here to point out that Cora has had a huge impact on Ramirez and Beckham. Ramirez used to be a butcher with the glove. The past year he has come into his own. If you want to rip Cora for failures you can't really prove he was at the root of, then you must also accept the successes.

[iamshack]

My point is that big deal, you drafted no doubter of a middle infielder out of college and "developed him" and a college senior who is destined to be a good pen arm and most likely nothing more. That isn't much to brag about recently. Even if you want to use your method, my point being, the White Sox still rank pretty low. Plus, how do you define "ahead of schedule?" and measure such thing?

 

The best way to measure the contributions of ones farm team is world series flags, rings, and parades. Period.

So you're going to say these guys were no doubters now?

 

Whatever. That's just revisionist history.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You pointed out that Cora had no impact on Josh Fields' game. I'm here to point out that Cora has had a huge impact on Ramirez and Beckham. Ramirez used to be a butcher with the glove. The past year he has come into his own. If you want to rip Cora for failures you can't really prove he was at the root of, then you must also accept the successes.

 

I don't recall either attending the mythical Camp Cora last year. I give Omar a lot more credit than I would give Cora, a guy who never played SS, for the evolution of Ramirez. Beckam played a decent 2B last year. And decent is being kind. I still think he can get better. But he was hardly Roberto Alomar.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Paint it Black]

Well right now it's no contest. But if the White Sox had the number one pick in 2008, I'll tell you which Beckham they would have drafted, and it would not have been Gordon.

 

 

You pointed out that Cora had no impact on Josh Fields' game. I'm here to point out that Cora has had a huge impact on Ramirez and Beckham. Ramirez used to be a butcher with the glove. The past year he has come into his own. If you want to rip Cora for failures you can't really prove he was at the root of, then you must also accept the successes.

What did the White Sox do to develop Gordon Beckham? My point being, he was pretty much at that point. This was not a guy they took in the third round as a draft and follow. Everybody knew what he was, and this was pretty much common knowledge within the major draft publications. The only argument was to what his ceiling was.

 

Ditto Chris Sale. He appeared in 11 games in the minor. 11. GAMES. Either the White Sox have the best ever system at developing guys ultra quickly, or he was ready when he was drafted. I'm not knocking the organization for recognizing a player like this, but when people want to give them credit for "developing" him I think it's pretty hyperbolic.

 

And I'll say it again. Pretty much every team can name two guys that they recently drafted that are up with the big club. I think White Sox fans as a whole fall in love with prospects so much because for this club, they're so rare that they actually come up to the big leagues and are as good as advertised.

[Paint it Black]

Beckam played a decent 2B last year. And decent is being kind. I still think he can get better. But he was hardly Roberto Alomar.

 

Agreed on this point. I wasn't trying to make Beckham out to a top tier defender, rather he has been moved around a lot on the infield, and has done so with little head aches.