Obamanation Re-election MegaThread

[southsideirish71]

Where is this free health care you speak of?

 

And the US has opened its doors before, prior to 1924, not everyone came here. Surprisingly, some people actually dont want to come here.

 

So your free African refugee gets sick, he can't afford the doctor. Your not just going to let him die. You will need to make sure he can get free access to healthcare, isn't that Obamacare. 1924 a trip around the world was a different thing than it is today. You open up the doors without any control in this modern world and you would be shocked at the entry. Hell how many undocumented people from our neighbor to the south.

[BigSqwert]

So your free African refugee gets sick, he can't afford the doctor. Your not just going to let him die. You will need to make sure he can get free access to healthcare, isn't that Obamacare. 1924 a trip around the world was a different thing than it is today. You open up the doors without any control in this modern world and you would be shocked at the entry. Hell how many undocumented people from our neighbor to the south.

Mandating a portion of the populace to purchase health care is the equivalent to "free" in your eyes?

[Soxbadger]

'Space' isn't the problem. Lack of a bottomless wallet is. Lack of jobs is.

 

I thought that most economists debunked that myth, both liberal/conservative too, its one of the things actual economists agree on.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/

 

Brits:

 

Somerville and Sumption: [T]he impact of immigration [on a nation's economy] remains small, for several reasons. Immigrants are not competitive in many types of jobs, and hence are not direct substitutes for natives. Local employers increase demand for low-skilled labor in areas that receive low-skilled immigrant inflows. Immigrants contribute to demand for goods and services that they consume, in turn increasing the demand for labor. And immigrants contribute to labor market efficiency and long-term economic growth.

 

 

Cato:

 

David Griswold, director of the Center for Trade Policy Studies at the libertarian Cato Institute, wrote in an article for Commentary magazine in December:

 

Griswold: The addition of low-skilled immigrants expands the size of the overall economy, creating higher-wage openings for managers, craftsmen, accountants, and the like. The net result is a greater financial reward and relatively more opportunities for those Americans who finish high school.

 

Liberal Think Tank:

 

Shierholz: A key result from this work is that the estimated effect of immigration from 1994 to 2007 was to raise the wages of U.S.-born workers, relative to foreign-born workers, by 0.4% (or $3.68 per week), and to lower the wages of foreign-born workers, relative to U.S.-born workers, by 4.6% (or $33.11 per week).

 

 

http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economic.../el2010-26.html

 

Another paper:

 

. Data show that, on net, immigrants expand the U.S. economy’s productive capacity, stimulate investment, and promote specialization that in the long run boosts productivity. Consistent with previous research, there is no evidence that these effects take place at the expense of jobs for workers born in the United States.

 

The Economist:

 

http://www.economist.com/node/21526893

 

Immigration is, on the whole, good for economies; and right now, rich countries can do with all the economic help they can get. Rather than sending immigrants home, with their skills, energy, ideas and willingness to work, governments should be encouraging them to come. If they don’t, governments elsewhere will.

 

Bloomberg:

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-30/i...tudy-finds.html

 

I assume you dont want more evidence, but just want to stick to your memes:

 

THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

Edited June 19, 2012 by Soxbadger

[Soxbadger]

So your free African refugee gets sick, he can't afford the doctor. Your not just going to let him die. You will need to make sure he can get free access to healthcare, isn't that Obamacare. 1924 a trip around the world was a different thing than it is today. You open up the doors without any control in this modern world and you would be shocked at the entry. Hell how many undocumented people from our neighbor to the south.

 

Yep I pay my taxes so the immigrants can get healthcare.

 

Just like I pay taxes so the Southern states can get federal money to build roads etc.

 

Sometimes my tax money goes to where I like, sometimes not.

 

I just dont live my life based on a mythical fear of immigrants, when the US was built on immigrants and had its most successful years with high immigration.

 

 

[southsideirish71]

Mandating a portion of the populace to purchase health care is the equivalent to "free" in your eyes?

 

Well tell me how the 11 million undocumented people that we just snapped into a work permit are dealing with health care costs. Are we in the status quo of they show up to the emergency room and the hospital gets to flip the bill. They are laying off nurses at the local hospital because of the increased cost to the hospital.

 

 

So we snap our fingers and we have open borders. How are they paying for healthcare.

[southsideirish71]

Yep I pay my taxes so the immigrants can get healthcare.

 

Just like I pay taxes so the Southern states can get federal money to build roads etc.

 

Sometimes my tax money goes to where I like, sometimes not.

 

I just dont live my life based on a mythical fear of immigrants, when the US was built on immigrants and had its most successful years with high immigration.

 

And how much will your taxes need to go up to support the new immigrants. If you think this is sustainable then good luck.

[Soxbadger]

Well tell me how the 11 million undocumented people that we just snapped into a work permit are dealing with health care costs. Are we in the status quo of they show up to the emergency room and the hospital gets to flip the bill. They are laying off nurses at the local hospital because of the increased cost to the hospital.

 

 

So we snap our fingers and we have open borders. How are they paying for healthcare.

 

Because Ill be making more money, just like most other Americans when the new immigrants create middle level opportunities for American citizens, so the govt will get more money from me to pay for them. Also some of these immigrants will become rich and pay far more than their fair sure.

 

Its a lot better than an illegal immigrant making money in the US to send back to his family in Mexico, instead of spending that money in the US.

[Soxbadger]

And how much will your taxes need to go up to support the new immigrants. If you think this is sustainable then good luck.

 

I dont know how much my taxes have to go up.

 

Perhaps the govt will cut other programs that I dont think are worthwhile. But the US budget spends a lot of money on border patrol, etc. Maybe they take that money and put it into healthcare.

 

Im sure I could find money if they gave me the chance, and not only that, but wed have a rocking economy that would boom hard.

[StrangeSox]

And free school breakfast and lunch and surely within a few years dinner. And busing. And spare me he property tax bulls***.

 

Spare me facts that don't fit my "they don't pay taxes!!!" narrative!

[StrangeSox]

Free health care and education and government aid. You open up the doors and everyone will be here. It's better than where they are.

We don't have actual free health care. We have less socialized health care than many latin american countries.

[Balta1701]

Perhaps the govt will cut other programs that I dont think are worthwhile. But the US budget spends a lot of money on border patrol, etc. Maybe they take that money and put it into healthcare.

It's gone from $5 billion a year to about $20 billion a year over the last decade, and that doesn't count money spent in the U.S. on prisons and arrests.

 

But then that money is like money spent blowing people up. It doesn't count. Only money spent on hippie things like education counts. If its spent on real, important things, like drones and guns, we don't have to count it, so cutting that money produces no savings.

[StrangeSox]

How much money did they give Boeing for the border fence boondoggle?

[southsider2k5]

But they didnt change immigration, so its not comparable. You both have to offer amnesty and change immigration law, so once again, I ask you to show me where that has happened and failed, as you said I could read a history book and find it, so Im waiting. I really want that information because if you have it, it could change my entire argument. So once again, thanks in advance.

 

How do I plan for paying for it?

 

By collecting taxes from people that previously were getting benefits and not paying taxes.

 

Right now they are in the US, getting services, costing money, and many of them pay $0. How would it be a bad thing if they are in the US, getting services, costing money and paying something?

 

Amnesty would force some people who get benefits to actually pay something. If anything it should immediately reduce the debt.

 

That is not even considering the cost of keeping people out, and the benefit of saving that money.

 

I just got told that problem didn't exist. You guys probably should get your talking points straight.

 

Also even if the other side is right, and there is a major tax deficit, most illegals aren't going to be working the types of jobs that make them taxpayers enough to cover the benefits they use over a life time. Do that times however many illegals there are here... not pretty.

[southsider2k5]

Man you are just killing your own argument.

 

So if the law doesnt work and there is no incentive to follow the law, should you:

 

A) Blindly keep believing the law will work.

 

B) Change the law.

 

You are exactly right there. There is no incentive to follow the law, which is the whole problem here. That is why you have to actually have a law that works. Amnesty is just making sure the laws don't work.

[southsider2k5]

Not when you don't do anything to fix your broken system that led to the problem in the first place.

 

My feeling has always been to remove all racial biases in immigration, including the inherently racist system we have now that favors just the groups that are geographically close, versus those who really need to immigrate to the US for actual life and death situations.

[southsider2k5]

Andrew Carnegie, immigrant.

 

What makes you think that immigrants wont make up lower, middle and upper class. US history is filled with immigrant success stories.

 

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/08/08...mmigrants/1.htm

 

LEGAL immigrant. But nice spin to something irrelevant.

[Balta1701]

You are exactly right there. There is no incentive to follow the law, which is the whole problem here. That is why you have to actually have a law that works. Amnesty is just making sure the laws don't work.

And it's been 25 years since the last major amnesty, which is why the laws are working great right now.

[StrangeSox]

You are exactly right there. There is no incentive to follow the law, which is the whole problem here. That is why you have to actually have a law that works. Amnesty is just making sure the laws don't work.

 

Amnesty is patching a hole left by unworkable laws. Amnesty without reform is a bad idea. Deportation without reform is a dumb, expensive, unrealistic idea. History bears both of those statements out.

[southsider2k5]

They won't come if there aren't jobs for them.

 

Which is what has happened in the last few years.

[southsider2k5]

Mandating a portion of the populace to purchase health care is the equivalent to "free" in your eyes?

 

It is when it is "paid for".

[StrangeSox]

Some or all of PPACA will be dead within a week or so, so that's really a moot point.

[southsider2k5]

Because Ill be making more money, just like most other Americans when the new immigrants create middle level opportunities for American citizens, so the govt will get more money from me to pay for them. Also some of these immigrants will become rich and pay far more than their fair sure.

 

Its a lot better than an illegal immigrant making money in the US to send back to his family in Mexico, instead of spending that money in the US.

 

Well except those in low income areas who will be directly competing for blue collar work and see their wages plummet as they get undercut by those willing to work cheaper.

[Balta1701]

LEGAL immigrant. But nice spin to something irrelevant.

Carnegie immigrated to the U.S. when the U.S. immigration laws required:

The first naturalization law in the United States was the Naturalization Act of 1790, which restricted naturalization to "free white persons" of "good moral character" who had resided in the country for two years and had kept their current state of residence for a year. In 1795 this was increased to five years residence and three years after notice of intent to apply for citizenship, and again to 14 years residence and five years notice of intent in 1798.

 

The first quota based immigration law didn't appear until the 1880's when the U.S. realized too many yellow Chinese people were coming in to the country and we had to do something about that. If he didn't already have family here, there's a decent chance Carnegie would have been unable to immigrate to the U.S. under current law, or if he did, he'd have a 10 year waiting period.

[southsider2k5]

And it's been 25 years since the last major amnesty, which is why the laws are working great right now.

 

Exactly. The system we have no is a disaster, and an amnesty program will only reinforce the next wave to anchor away.

[StrangeSox]

Well except those in low income areas who will be directly competing for blue collar work and see their wages plummet as they get undercut by those willing to work cheaper.

 

They're already undercut by those having to work under-the-table for sub-legal wages with no benefits because they have no legal recourse to go after exploitative employers. Legalizing these workers and giving them labor protections will cause upward pressure on wages, not downward.