cwsox

let's go Marlins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

words hurt deepest however I was not hurt by your words but angry I note your apology. at this moment the best that I can say is that tonight I shall pray, "forgive me my sins as I forgive those who sin against me." Mindful of my own innate sinfullness and the sins which I have commited against others, I am compelled by grace to let go of anger and in need of my own reception of grace to grant grace to all others. So I will process your apology that way. That is the best that I can say, best way I can say it, because it is by that process I shall accept it and I need to remind myself of that process so I can say the apology will be acepted.

Jas, I was going to email you to congratulate you for standing my by your candidate. Now I can't do that. I don't agree with your guys views but he showed much integrity and class these past two weeks. You should have voted for me! Integrity and class deserve support!

take eminem's lyrics at face value by what the media says or study them for what they do say - and does eminem describe what is wrong with some people's attitudes and life as it is or is he advocating? As a member of the clergy, my first response to Eminem was negative based on what the media reported. Then when I discovered so many of the people with whom I work were so much fans of Eminem, I began a systematic study of his lyrics and of the man himself. And I did a complete reversal of position for I find that is social commentator the way that Oliver Stone comments on society in "Natural Born Killers" or Bret Easton Ellis does in his books or Lenny Bruce and to some degree George Carlin did/do in the routines or Eminem in his songs. And very clearly in Eminem's lyrics is much that would surprise people who take his work at face valueor know it only through the media. Actually, I like a great deal of what he has to say to those who really listen, and I am very comfortable with it, so much I have been to several of his concerts and taken my grandson. Study his lyrics deeply and take it as artistic statements and it is an incredible insight into the violence that is wrong with America among other things and Em remains the only top 40 musical act that I am aware of who asks the question, why two guys can't get married, as in, why not? Surprised he said that? Most people are. It is there. I don;t do other people's homework. care enough and you will find it. Em also took the opportunity in 8 Mile to say more. There are two definitve scenes in which Em rejects homophobia. It was a movie, some say, but it was his movie and he choose to ahve those scenes in there. Even more, those scenes are incredibly consistent with the Marshall Mathers ouevre. Since this is a Mathew Shepherd thread, I feel very confident in saying that were Marshall Mathers present at that event, he would have beaten the s*** out of those who attacked Mathew Shepherd and protected/intervened on behalf of Mathew Shepherd.

This is not the thread in which I wish to discuss this at length. This thread began as a tribute to Mathew Shepherd and has turned into more personal attacks. But I feel real honesty and sincerity in your question and will answer here; if you wish to continue dialogue, another thread would be. I am answering you as an ordained member of the clergy of Jesus Christ, with an MDiv degree and much further studies, and I say that not to brag but to tell you that I have depth in this issue. Homosexuality is not against the Roman Catholic religion. The current status in Roman Catholic canon law and church teaching is that homosexuality is a natural thing that some people are, but that homosexual oral-genital sexual activity is sinful. This belief is shared by some church bodies, not shared by others. Issues of sexuality are before a number of American church bodies, including the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and others. To speak to each church body would need to include their particular polity. For example, for the ELCA Lutherans (although not for LCMS Lutherans) being gay is not an issue for any layperson but the expectation of clergy is that if they are gay they will be celebate. That is currently under study in the ELCA. In the Methodist and Presbyterian churchs in the US, homosexuality is not an issue for laypeople but it is not allowable for clergy - and this continues to eb hotly debated, especially in the Presbyterian church. Also at issue in the church bodies named above (with the exception of the LCMS) is the blessing of gay unions. Clergy are doing it nationwide. In some church bodies there is no stance on that. In others, for example the United Methodists, it is forbidden by the Book of Discipline but is widely done in some geographical parts of the church. Far more common in Chicago - where a pastor was acquited of violating church order for doing that - than in Montana, for example. Blessings of gay unions has been done in the Episcopal Church on a diocese by diocese basis for a long time, and especially since the statement of Epsicopal bishops of I think 1995 but I could be a tad off on the year. Some dicoeses permit that and also ordain clergy who are gay; others do not. The majority do. Recently the Diocese of New Hampshire elected an openly gay priest as their bishop. The Episcopal Church in its assembly ratified that move by votes in the House of delegates and House of Bishops. There is some dissension amongst the minority to the move, but it very clearly was the discernment of the majority of the Episcopal Church do so. The Presiding Bishop of the EC as well as the Archbishop of Canterbury have been supportive, very much so. Not all Anglican church bodies internationally agree with the moves of the American EC. In the US, several church bodies as well as Jewish faith groups (such as Reform Judaism) ordain gay clergy, bless gay unions, etc. The most well known US Church body is the United Church of Christ (the former Congregational church). Many of the small reformed church bodies (such as Church of the Bretheran) are right there. That is also true of many of the small Old Catholic (a separate group than Roman Catholic) church bodies. The Unitarian-Universalist Church is way out in front of everyone. Looking globaly, the Canadian mainline protestant bodies are very inclusive, and the same is true in Europe. In Europe where gay civil unions are being passed into law, made legal, that has happened with the support of - or without the opposition of - many church bodies. The Reformed and the Old Catholic in Holland, the Lutherans in Scandanavia and the Lutherans, Evangelicals and Old Catholics of Germany have been very supportive. The African and some of the Asia church bodies have been hostile. In the Anglican communion, there will be some confrontation on the issue. Within the Lutheran and Reformed world organizations, not an issue, each national church does as it sees fit. Now for th Scriptures: trust me, I could go on for a long time on what the Scriptures say. I am Lutheran and for me the Scriptures are the source for the faith and life of the Church. Again, this is not the forum. Obviously given all the Christian churches and Jewsih faith groups that are supportive, it is not an issue for them because a real search of the Scriptures reveals that they say something very different than what it is assumed they say. So I will point you to the story of Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah. That simply is not a story about homosexuality. It is about many things but not about homosexuality. Read the entire story in the Scriptures (and I won't tell you where it is, you have to find it). If the point of the story is the homosexuality is bad, then the other point of the story has to be that rape and murder of women is acceptable. Since I do not think that God is teaching that rape and murder of women is acceptable, I look again at the whole story. The entire story is a sound condemnation of acts of violence against strangers, against alien people, against other people, a strong condemnation of violence and injustice. I support that as Biblical teaching by taking all the Sodom and Gomorroh referances in other books of the Scriptures, including Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, et al. as well as in the sayings of Jesus. An in depth Scriptural study shows that for the people of God who wroite the Scriptures, sexual issues were not on their minds when they thought of Sodomn and Gomorrah. The violations of the Levitical and Deuternominc codes (coming later as they did) is in the acts of violence and injustice and oppression of the powerless - in which the act of rape is directed against any person of either gender as a form of oppression, but importantly, only one of many acts of injustice which brought the communities under judgment. There is more to say, good friend, but this post is long enough and we can discuss this - if you are interested - elsewhere. Your question was asked with integrity and I responded with integrity for you. God's blessings as you seek to deal with these issues in your thinking. Oh, and trust me, you do know gays and lesbians, they just haven't come out to you yet. Read again Mr Eye's poignant post at the beginning of this thread. Somewhere in your life, you have people who need a friend, who need to know that you will be their friend no matter what.

BMR, with all your deep and vast contacts with the gay community, you know what lies in the heart of every gay person and straight person who grieves and mourns over a young man beng beaten savagely, tied to a fence, and left to die. You know that no one has any human emotion about this, that remembering Mathew Shepherd ios all a political ploy. That is as right as everything else that you post. And then of course are your continued personal attacks on me, in which you describe the intimate details of my private life when you have never even met me, let alone that you are totally uninformed as to my life as you are to what goes on in the hearts and minds of gays and lesbians and straight people who mourn the savage murder of Mathew Shepherd. Jason, trying to turn cute and discuss Michael Jordan after the viciousness of the personal attacks doesn't cut it. Ignoring the festering wound does not make it go away. Jason, when do you take a stand? What was WSC suspended for that has not been deeply transgressed by others, but more so? Your hate was revealed in your own posts in another thread and is ever present here. But the more you attack and go on, the more pity I have for you. You have to be hurting very badly to have so much venon. You presume to know what goes on in the hearts and minds of people whom you have never met - be it gay leadership or me or whoever. God is a God of great grace and mercy. You will receive much grace from God. I pray, as I have this evening, that you will find healing what whatever it is that causes your bitterness at life. And I expect in return: more personal attacks, a series of the smileys, a few sets of initials (LMAO among others) and all the other denial and deflection methods that are yours. Go ahead. I will sleep very well tonight in a communion with my God that is at oneness and peace. You will sleep with rage, anger, bitterness, spitting invectives. But you are of all people most to be pitied and I ask others on here to regard you with compassion and mercy - even though you give none - for you above all need healing from the wrath that consumes you.

you best be very glad that God is merciful because the hatred that is you will need a very loving God in your time of need

In that yesterday we had posts - from one poster - advocating violence against people because they are gay, the remembrance of Mathew Shepherd is very ironic right now. This is an email that I received from another list. It could have been from an Old Catholic Church list, a United Church of Christ list, a Religious Coalition list, or any of the many church and ecumenical lists to which I belong. The stance of the Scriptures is against violence. Matthew Shepard was savagely beaten five years ago tonight because he was gay. He died six days later, on 12 October 1998. At the trial of one of his killers, his father Dennis gave a courtroom statement that provided a moving denunciation of such violence and that provided witness to the pricelessness of the life that had been lost. That moving statement can be found at Words by Mathew's father at the sentencing of his son's killers

Hate is good. Hate fuels the mind and multiplies your inner rage a thousand-fold. It is precarious but it is constant. It touches you and makes your blood boil so fast and so hot that it becomes impossible to think of anything logical. It becomes impossible to reason out anything. It makes you primitive and unrelenting, furious and self-absorbed. It is an easy trait to learn. Hate is good. It is directed towards someone, a group of people or everybody in general. If your hate is repressed, do not worry. You can keep it inside you for a while and release it with wild abandon on something or someone that doesn’t mind the attention. With hate, you can lash out and release all the inhibitions that keep your fragile mind in a constant state of frustration and not care of the consequences of your actions afterwards. It is a natural stress reliever. Hate is good. It shows love in all its glory. For how can one truly hate without having loved at first? Hate is but a by-product of love. A love of your self, your ego, your family, your friends, your valuables, or perhaps your principles can be stripped away in a matter of seconds even though it takes months and years to create and nurture them. After this, what fills the obvious void within? Compassion? I think not. It is hate. It satisfies you and keeps you whole instead of making you feel distressed and alone. Hate is good. It is easy to learn and hold on to. It can sustain loneliness and harden the self (although sometimes at the cost of the soul). It is better than missing or loving someone since you know that hate will never leave you and that those you learn to love eventually will. Hate is what I have, what I know. Hate is my enemy and my friend. Hate is good for those too weak to endure risk. Hate is good for those too fragile to conquer the obstacles of love. Hate is good for those without faith, without hope. Hate is good.

Jessica says if this is what chisoxfan Jason lloks like, his prayers are answered...

Jessica Simpson praying for Jason

this is a prayer group that ceased to pray for peace at soxtalk and is now praying that Jason gets lucky with Jessica Simpson -- and that Jessica turns out not to be the ex wife of OJ since that is not good for anyone's future!

I'd like a policy that we will discuss gay topics no more because it gets too vehement, the disagrrement is too great, it gets too passionate and ends in personal attacks and deelpy hurt feelings, and we will decide for the good of the soxtalk community that it will be one issue we will leave off soxtalk becaue it not only divides and also it does so in a most harmful, hurtfull way.

I think there is some confusion, either you misunderstood me or I am misunderstanding you. What I meant was, that the WASPs that roman is blaming were not the first to trade slaves. The famous middle passage that brought slaves to the new world was not the first slave trade. If I am correct, the first group of people to have a full civilization were those in the middle east (that is where humanity came to be) and civilizations like Egypt had well documented slavery, before the people of northern europe had a society (that is where the tree reference comes in, because the white people of europe did not have elaborate society's yet) Also the Nubians who would be even more african than the egyptians had slaves too, so like you said nobody can say they didn't practice a slave trade. And make sure Finley stays in that tree for a very long time. not to quibble - I think the development of civilization iss far older and eastern and not arab than you are suggesting but the middle east in the 10th-20th centuries BCE is an area of mine that I study a lot. But I know what you mean. The enslavement of the native Americans by the first european explorers resulted in the entire elimination of cultures and peoples by disease, inhumanity, and violence, which created an insatiable need for a new source of slaves. No one has anything good to say about themselves. We have all sinned. and hey, Go Blue, Findley is the one we love! It is Rivas who did the run and punt numbers. Findley is ok. His blockers should be sitting in the stands for all the good they ahve done.

we have no smiley for "let us pray" we need one! are we praying for roman stopping talking or for it all to die?

I'll confirm.

a sociologial correction if I may to be dear M Go Blue brother - "arabs" did not have slaves while white people where climbing trees. The group that is defined as "arabic" came into being long after the origins of human history. It is very fair to say that in every human civilization that has been studied, from its earliest literate inception and looking back to its pre literate days, slavery was practiced by every people, every civiliazation. No one can claim any purity here. now, how did the white people climb trees? They surely can't jump - how did they get into the trees? but trust me, if I catch our punting team out in the open, I may chase them all, regardless of ethnicity, class, or social status, up a tree and keep them there until January 2

your reading, research, and comprehension skil;ls need to impriove before you get to college. I came very late to this conversation and did not say the things that you attribute to me. And it is not for you to define what is a joke and what is not if your joke offends others. I can post a postcard - sold in dimestores in Georgia - of Leo Frank after he was lynched - the lynch mob is all laughing and the post card was sold as a sign of hilarity. When a "joke" is made and others find it offensive, common courtesy and civility say, cease. Not "in your face, you sensitive twit." Take a lot of jokes that you tell with your buddies about women. Tell them to your mother. No, you wouldn't do that because you respect her (or she's beat the s*** out of out?)? There is such a thing as time and place. The plea has been continual, lets stop posting things here that we know are purely offensive and in fact are posted only to be offensive. This is supposed to be a community. A community survives by respecting each other. I think it is very fair that we know what "jokes" are going to offend, so cease offending. (That would also be Biblical.) Ironic that the original post in this thread which had the "joke" was inadverent and the poster has apoligized and asked for the thread to if deleted. Do I honor that request from the the thread originator? No, because if I did, those who wish to use that inadverent offensive joke to be purposely offensive would cry like senstive babies about other people being sensitve.