NUKE_CLEVELAND

The one person I really feel bad for in all this is the coach. He gave up his job to take responsibility for something that, in light of the DNA evidence, may never have happened. He gets points for integrity though, thats for sure.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 03:47 PM) If we find a way to remove the reason for people to cross that border illegally...there will be no reason to spend all that money to prevent people from crossing illegally. Exactly, and that goes back to Rex's point earlier about levying massive fines on companies who knowingly hire illegal aliens.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 03:21 PM) What scares me about this, more than anything else, is that the institutional idiocy that allowed him and his cohorts to plan this thing is still in place. The FBI stil hasn't materially improved their processes, and the Department of Homeland Red Tape has made things worse. If this same scenario happened today, where a guy like Moussaui was out there and the FBI wanted to get him (like they did in his case, months before 9/11), they'd still not be able to. That is the worst part of all of this trial nonsense and aftermat, in my opinion. We didn't learn from it and make things better. I disagree that we haven't made things better. Even despite a lot of high level bungling we're still in a lot better shape security wise than we were before 9-11. Under the current scheme of things I don't believe a similar attack could be carried out here. Hopefully time will prove me right.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 03:16 PM) What some people here are failing to see is that if these immigrants were here legally, they'd still do those jobs. The fact that they have them illegally is not the positive aspect - its the fact that the jobs are filled at all. So, if people have to get into an actual system of some kind, nothing is lost. Therefore, doing what Nuke suggests, and making them essentially stop skipping and get in line, is not going to permanently drain those jobs. But at least in that case, we'd get the tax revenue and the security that goes with knowing they are here, and they'd get the protections that go with being a documented alien. So you see, their presence here illegally isn't justifiable by the jobs they hold. That argument would only fly if some buffoon (Tancredo perhaps) was saying no to a guest worker program and no to any increas in visas, and yes to kicking them out, thus permanently removing these people from the job scene. Enforce where you can, tighten the borders, and get a guest worker program going (along with increased visa volume). That is the best of both worlds. ^^^^^^^ Agreed.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 02:28 PM) Does anyone have any idea how remote and long our borders are? How are we going to pay for the ultra tight border? To stop undocumented workers? What a waste of money. But of course the usual GOP plan would be to cut taxes and then we'd be able to pay for that. Oh so making sure our borders are secure is a "waste of money" huh? I guess screening all those containers coming into our ports is a "waste of money" too huh? There's so many and they're all carrying toys. dvd players and televisions, nothing could ever happen there! Sometimes you really amaze me. :rolly

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 02:51 PM) Let's try thinking here: -Illegal immigrants are taking many jobs that people don't want and getting paid ridiculously low wages to do so -To mobilize the unemployed to take these jobs, you'd probably have to double the wage at least. You'd have to expect an agricultural job to pay 12+ up. Because this isn't a service based job, the higher the wage, the lower the employment level. You'd experience a real high spike of unemployment in the short-run and a lot less quanity supplied. Again, you'd have to raise wages substantially to compensate for this. If you're going to b**** that they're not paying taxes and what not, the amount is amazingly small. Maybe if you wanted to increase tax revenue, you could, I don't know, stop pissing it away to spur short run consumption via tax cuts. What is your defenition of "short run"? I believe the last recession ended in 2002 and the economy has been expanding ever since and tax revenue's have also gone up even despite the tax cuts so there goes your stupid argument about "pissing it away". Since you haven't read anything I have had to say on this issue I'll refresh your memory. I understand that there are a lot of jobs that most Americans will not take and as such I favor a guest worker program to fill them. What Im not in favor of is a bunch of people crossing into this country illegally in order to take them. We dont know who they are, we have no clue as to their background and their presence here not only violates the law but is a slap in the face to the thousands of LEGAL immigrants who play by the rules and pursue the American dream the right way. Being the "socially conscious" lefty that you are you should be outraged that evil corporations exploit migrant labor at a fraction of the minimum wage but I guess in your frenzy to stop immigration reform you guys forgot all about that. QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 02:51 PM) I'm failing why to see Republicans are getting all huffy about this. They'll protect corporations at any cost to maximize profit and advocate outsourcing jobs to East Asia where wages are lower, but when they have lower wages sitting right in front of them, they just want to boot them out. I dont know what it takes to get it through your thick skull that these people are violating the law by being here. You say try thinking? You should take your own advice. Additionally, I know it really burns your ass but this isin't Soviet Russia and the government has no say so as to where corporations locate their factories or how they run their businesses. Those jobs are outsourced because the cost of labor is becomming prohibitively high, as an economics major you should know this, and to stay competitive and increase shareholder value companies must seek to lower costs.

Why don't we just put a bullet in this guy's head and be done with it. Every day he rants during his trial is another day he mocks America.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 01:48 PM) Well go ahead and expell all of them, I'm certain we will find 12,000,000 people to take their place. Dumb and short sighted, but if that's what the GOP wants. :headshake Well since you obviously missed what I said on the last page I'll re-post it for you. :rolly

EAT s*** TIGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 ONCE AGAIN THE GREATEST .500 TEAM EVER ASSEMBLED FALTERS AT OUR FEET. ONCE AGAIN JIM THOME OWNS EVERYBODY!!!! ONCE AGAIN DETROIT SUCKS ASS!!!!! GIMMIE A HELL YEAH!!!!!!

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 01:40 PM) If Garland is still pitching like this in June than maybe Ill worry about it. Although it would be really nice if he comes out his next start and dominates. ^^^^ People need to quit worrying about guys who are fighting it. This is Garlands what.....second start?

Well if we can't shut em down we'll beat em down. I like it.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 13, 2006 -> 05:53 AM) If he use the yardstick of contributing far less, then every poor person in America will have to be expelled. Employers will have to pay everyone a wage that will allow them to contribute in taxes the benefits they receive. These jobs will never pay that kind of wage. We all know that everyone working at minimum wage or even a step of two above it will not pay much in taxes and will qualify for Medicaid, Food Assistance Programs, educational assistance, will drive on the same roads, etc. For the most part these people are working jobs that need to be worked. Expelling them and crippling several industries, including our ag programs, is shortsighted and stupid. I do wish Reagan was still around, the great pillar of conservatism offered amnesty. Bush, who conservatives still believe is this outstanding leader, doesn't have the political capital to invest in amnesty, but is at least pushing for a guest worker program that leads to citizenship. But the rank and file, seem to reject their leadership in this area and I can't understand why. Theres one important difference between American poor people and illegal immigrants. American poor people actually belong here.

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 07:38 PM) "these people" eh? Yeah. Those people.

Sounds a lot like Boss Hogg and Roscoe P. Coltrane are running that town. Sad really.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 07:24 PM) A few weeks ago, I heard Senator Kennedy pass along an estimate for how much it would cost to actually expel all 11-20 million of these immigrants, in terms of rounding them up, shipping, etc. The number he gave was something like $240 billion. A Center for American Progress study in 2005 estimated the cost at $210 billion over 5 years. Obviously we can't go out tomorrow, round em up and toss em out. The way to get rid of these people is to arrest them when the opportunity presents itself, make the border airtight and as Rex said, start levying massive fines on employers who are found to be hiring these people. You eliminate their reason for being here in the first place and they will start leaving on their own.

I defenitely think Crede will be the winner if he keeps flashing the leather at 3rd. He's been totally awesome at the hot corner for a good little while now.

QUOTE(POPPY_HIDALGO @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 12:00 PM) I heard he's still getting the s*** kicked out of him by Nolan Ryan on the weekends. Dude that was ruthless. LOL! In all seriousness though, I miss Ventura a lot. He's EASILY my favorite ex-sox player.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 06:03 PM) They should be fined for employing illegal workers. However, fines would vary based on whether it was intentional. If it is intentional, the fines should be outrageously huge. Enough to shut them down. ^^^^^^^^^^ DING DING DING!!!!!!!! Finally something in this thread I can agree with.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 05:10 PM) As far as the employers, most of the illegals have paperwork (forged or stolen) that shows they are legal to work. Would you still fine the employer for being fooled by false paperwork? I wouldn't. In the case where forged paperwork is in play then the criminal illegal alien in question should be tossed in the pokey for fraud.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 04:53 PM) Expelling 12,000,000 workers to score votes is short sighted and stupid. Exactly why the GOP will do it. Expelling 12 million criminals who are a burden to our social services and contribute FAR less than they take is the only appropriate measure to take.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 06:01 PM) Nuke: you are wrong about French Labor Laws. Dismissal, although not the easiest thing in the world to do - is very doable. Source: The Invest in France Agency http://www.investinfrance.org/France/Doing...ployment_en.pdf Very Doable? Not according to this. http://www.fee.org/in_brief/default.asp?id=378 So it takes an average of more than a year to decide whether an employee can be fired or not and can take up to almost 3 years?! Thats almost what it takes to execute someone here in the US. Like I said. You get a job in France and you can't be fired.

QUOTE(Cerbaho-WG @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 09:31 AM) Because you're not an economist, have no clue of any aspect of labor law, have no clue about right-to-work laws, and are genuinely ignorant of anything French unless you can pin a simpleton stereotype on it. I'm in no way saying that I am qualified in any of the aforemention areas, but to tout American capitalism and labor law is quite funny considering how atrocious our labor laws are. Countdown to someone posting a perfectly competitive labor market with a price floor. I'd love to tear that stupid argument apart again. Nobody claimed that out labor laws are perfect but they are far and away better than those the French have in place. When you have a system where people cannot be terminated even when business goes south or the employee turns out to be a dirtbag it creates a massive drag on hiring. This is because businesses are reluctant to hire anybody when they are stuck with the employee until he/she decides to go elsewhere. It does not take an economist to reason this out, as you suggested, but someone with the most basic understanding of economics. The result of French labor laws are plain for all to see considering they are falling behind the rest of the European economies. Thats saying a lot since nearly all of them are stagnant and straining under the weight of their own socialist systems. When you see thousands of people who take to the streets to violently protest policies which would take away some of their outrageously generous worker benefits for the benefit of the whole nation thats being spoiled and selfish. Much like a child who won't share with a sibling. When you see a government give in to the demands of the street thats weakness. Those are not "simpelton stereotypes" as you put it but facts. But if you insist on experts on economics I invite you to watch CNBC ( I know you might hurt your eyes with all that capitalism flashing across your screen but it's worthwhile ) and listen to what the most respected minds in the business world have to say about it. You may now go back to your regularly scheduled Karl Marx worship.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 09:44 AM) CNN Link Kudos to Hastert and Frist for taking leadership in creating a policy that actually helps the US and not just playing partisan politics. Creating a legitimate means for foreginers to come here and do dirty work does help. Allowing for people who broke the law to get by with it and have no consequenses does not.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Apr 12, 2006 -> 03:22 PM) Just saw this, figured it was interesting and on topic. WHAA WHAA WHAA. People who are here and overstayed their visas, swam across a river, hid in a container on a ship, stowed away in a tractor trailer rig or were beamed down by Scotty are all criminals. I don't care if they are running from a ruthless band of thugs or a schoolyard bully who wants to see em in the yard at recess. They violated U.S. law and should all be expelled. Their actions and the government's unwillingness to do anything about them create an atmosphere of lawlessness in this country, especially in the border regions. People who are illegal aliens should be immediately deported. No hearing, no trial, no nothing. Send them back where they came from. Additionally, if the government had any balls they would move in and close down these "immigrant rights" organizations which are barely disguised fronts for transporting and aiding people who break the law. That goes double for unscrupulous businesses who employ illegals and create the reason for their being here in so doing. Why should people who break the law and come here illegally be given the same rights and protections that people who play by the rules and go through the immigration process?

EAT s*** TIGERS!!!!!!!!! Once again, the biggest, baddest .500 team ever assembled falters at our feet. Maybe someday when they grow up they can play ball with us but I certainly won't be alive when it happens and neither will my kids. THOME = A f***ING BEAST!!!!! Contreras = Dominator!!!!!!!!! When was the last time he lost anyway?!!? WE f***ING RULE!!!! GO SOX!!