southsideirish

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 15, 2007 -> 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Probaby because Danks is better than BMAC, but that could be the too obvious point. SOme people don't like to watch the games and go by that. They need to base everything on stats - which is where a lot of arguments come from it seems.

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Jun 15, 2007 -> 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Great its going to get a chance to f*** up our young hitters for a while. WTF ''That would send the wrong message right now,'' Guillen insisted Wednesday. ''The only way I'm going to fire my coaches is they don't do what they're supposed to. I'll say this: All the coaches we have here, they have more passion than the players. What does that tell you? 'You have to see Greg Walker's face during the game. He's so disappointed watching this every day. He takes it home. Cooper, too. That's how passionate we are.'' Too bad for you. I know you need to see someone getting fired so it at least looks like a change is happening. I wish you the best in your pursuit of this dream.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jun 15, 2007 -> 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If McCarthy pitched for say Seattle, he would be a candidate for the all-star team this season. He's just in a terrible situation over there in Texas, who need to be finding groundball pitchers and not flyball pitchers such as B-Mac. Speculation is great isn't it?

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 15, 2007 -> 01:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> First of all, Coop called North a jerkoff, no idea why jerkoff and ass are censored but whatever. Second, I hate North but he did nothing wrong here. This team is an embarassment and appears to have quit. Nothing wrong? You don't ever ever EVER tell someone they are not fighting to do better. You don't ever ever EVER tell someone that they are just laying down. No matter how it looks from far back, you don't know what is really going on. That was messed up and he deserved to be called a lot worse than jerk off if you ask me. I would like to add one more thing to this thread. There seems to be a lot of people jumping on some White Sox staff and players for taking offense and going off on people. Take a step back and take a look at what the common denominator is in every single situation so far. That would be Mike North. He does this to try to get his name in the paper and his sound bits played across the nation. There is a reason why New York papers and media have said that he sucked in his 2 days there. BECAUSE HE DOES! I don't know why or how he is successful here - he is absolutely brutal to listen to, yet for some reason or another he not only has a job here but is like some type of Chicago media icon. This baffles me to no end. So to conclude my little rant I would just like to ask you all to take a step back and stop blaming our players and blame the asshole instigator that is Mike North. He is an absolute tool. QUOTE(Allsox @ Jun 15, 2007 -> 08:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Lack of hitting always make a team look like lifeless. They're trying hard but it just isn't working this yr. And this yr's team is far from embarassing. Try any of the teams after the '85 season until '90 for 100% embarassment. The lack of hitting is not the only thing. It doesn't look like they hustle much. There is no energy - no speed - no energizer in any way. There is not a guy who is going to make an outstanding fielding play to give the team energy. There is not a guy that is going to stretch a single to a double or double to triple and get some energy in the team. Home runs are nice - but there is no WOW factor on this team right now. There is no one that you want to see and say WOW, what a f***ing catch or throw. How about runnning someone over at the plate? Whether your safe or out that brings energy. No one on our team can or is willing to do this right now.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think they, and we, are laughing with him. Ichiro's the best leadoff hitter of my time so far, and he's a fabulous personality. Better than Rickey Henderson in his prime, or was this not your time? I don't really know when your time is. Rickey Henderson was damn good.

QUOTE(mmmmmbeeer @ Jun 14, 2007 -> 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you think that with a guaranteed reduction in ST sales we're going to have the money to acquire via FA: LF CF RF 2B SP x 1 an entire bullpen (minus boone and bobby) and that's assuming that Crede will be able to play and that you don't want to upgrade Uribe. Face it, this team isn't going to contend next season unless KW is able to work some MAJOR magic and JR increases the payroll despite lower revenue streams. To say we aren't in complete rebuilding mode is to fool yourself, imo. You should expect to get some of these pieces via trades with Jermaine Dye, Mark Buehrle (I am assuming that is your 1 SP opening), and Tadahito Iguchi. Aaron Rowand shouldn't cost much in CF. RF Ichiro will pay for himself with all the merchandise and attendance he will bring in. LF they will need to find a power guy - maybe trade some prospects for that type of player. 2B shouldn't be too difficult to replace Iguchi. SP should be a rook or Massett or a dependable veteran. They have pieces for the bullpen - they just have to straighten them out. THey should not need an entire bullpen as you say.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 11:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cabrera is a hell of a lot better than many of the names people will pray for over the next few weeks. If anything, at least it would give us a good throwing arm in the outfield. Cabrera is mediocre at best. I probably won't want any of these other names that people will supposedly pray over either. I don't want the sox to keep acquiring bad to mediocre young talent. They have enough of that. Why do they need to keep stockpiling the same crap? A good throwing arm? They can't find a good throwing arm on the free agent market if that is all you are looking for? They would have to give up Buehrle to get one? Insane.I don't want to settle for these types of players.

QUOTE(BearSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you have to let whoever is your pitcher pitch in that situation, rookie or not... You're right Dusty Baker. Let's ruin anything good that we do have this year so there will ABSOLULTELY be no future for this team.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was doing some thinking and its pretty obvious the Yankees would absolutely love the idea of Mark Buehrle. It is also obvious that they won't give up a guy like Phillip Hughes. However, they do have some other guys that could fill some needs on the south side of Chicago. I should also point out that to trade Buehrle, the Sox should get two young starters plus a upper echelon prospect. After thinking through things, the Yanks have two young starters named Melky Cabrera and Robinson Cano. I realize Cano is a bit over-rated, however, he hits for good power, plays a solid d (not great but he's better than Guchi and has improved a bit since his rookie season) and can hit for an average. Cabrera is also a bit over-rated, but he had a pretty damn solid rookie year. He will never hit for a ton of power, probably won't be an all star, but he should be a pretty steady .280-.290 with a .350 to .360 OBP all while playing pretty darn good defense with a real strong arm (plus he's young). Those two guys would be immediate starters in Chicago filling two serious need positions. The Sox would also include Tadahito Iguchi in this deal, so the Yanks can replace Cano temporarily. That brings us to the upper echelon prospect...Ian Kennedy. He was a stud at USC, a #1 selection in last years draft and has been absolutely dominant in the minors so far. I'm sure the Yanks would whine about it, but if the Sox deal Buehrle they have to get a high impact arm and Kennedy is that guy (he also has the ability to be a quick mover and be at the major league level sooner rather than later). Obviously I prefer to keep Buehrle and move Contreras (if you can get him to waive his no trade) but if not, I think this would be a pretty solid deal. Mix this with a deal with the Dodgers involving a pitcher plus Dye (maybe MacDougall or if they wanted Contreras and could get him to bite on a deal you could turn this into a bigger package) that gets you Ethier and hopefully Billingsley (maybe Loney or whomever else). You now have added a couple top notch pitching prospects, filled in your outfield with two young outfielders (plus you have Sweeney developing and obviously the ability to sign a guy like Ichiro or try to pick up a power bat because the lineup would obviously need some pop from somewhere) and gotten younger at 2b. LF - Ethier (or RF) CF - Cabrera RF - ??? (You could go with less power and try to land Ichiro or try to trade or sign a power bat) Sweeney would also get ab's and compete (but I fully think you should quite a few outfield options) 3B Fields and Crede SS - ??? 2B - Cano 1B - Konerko C - AJP DH - Thome (unless you can trade him). Definitely lacks a bit of pop, but you now have the money to go hard after an outfielder and try to move Uribe or whomever to upgrade at SS. Rotation: Garland Vazquez Danks Combo of: Kennedy/Gio/Floyd/Billingsley Worse Case: You use some of these guys to trade for an extra pitcher This doesn't factor in what you could get for Contreras, plus I think the Sox would than look to add in other areas (utilizing guys like Broadway). I would love to get Kennedy and Cano, I don't want Cabrera. It seems like there will be a lot of bidders as well. I think Gammons mentioned Seattle as a bidder on Baseball Tonight.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd say that Ozzie did a pretty good job of coaching that rookie closer down the stretch in '05, no? The Sox didn't go into this year to season to develop young players. They went in to win with their vets and expected guys like Danks, Massett, Aardsma, Logan, etc. to contribute right off the bat. But since their situation has obviously changed, Ozzie WILL have to develop young players and deal with the inevitable growing pains. We'll see how that goes. I think some are still pissed about Brian Anderson and Brandon McCarthy. I think they were both jokes, but some around here like to blame Ozzie for them being off the team. Also they blame Ozzie for Sean Tracey - it wasn't because Tracey has no talent - it was because Ozzie yelled at him and made him cry. Blah blah blah. QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's it. But I'd extend it to anyone else KW wants to bring up. This team is just awful. Cintron and Mack aren't likely to be around for the next contending Sox team. I'll be real pissed if I see them starting 1/2 the games. Who Jackie? What talent do you see coming up that is any good? WHO!? We have seen it all. There is Sweeney and Fields and some young arms. That is it. That is it! Anderson blows. Owens blows.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think he means if Ozzie dicks around with Fields like he's hinted at. I haven't heard this. This year? What other options does Ozzie have besides play Fields most days? Mackowiak and Cintron are just as bad at hitting and Fields looks better on defense.This should be a no brainer. Let the kid play, get comfortable, and get experience. QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes PK and Dye were on that team, but we did play small ball. How did we score the only run in Game 4 of the WS? Slap single. Bunt gets him to 2nd. Grounder gets him to 3rd. Base hit up the middle. That is one case - however the Sox had a ton of HRs and scored the majority of their runs on home runs. Home runs are not small ball.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because of the WS, Ozzie has a chance to prove that he can coach young players. If he refuses to do it, he should be canned. There aren't any other options, and he'd better figure that out. What young players? What young players do you expect Ozzie to be managing? We obviously have all of this major league ready talent in the minors just waiting for their opportunity.

QUOTE(dasox24 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There's no way that I'd trade Danks. He's the only real young prospect that looks like a keeper. He's still so young and doing very well for a rookie in the bigs. If we want to compete with Detroit, Cleveland, and Minny in the future, we need to keep any young pitcher (or position player for that matter) that does well b/c they're all stocked with boatloads of young talent. We're not in a position to trade away a bunch of young prospects/players for one guy (abeit one very talented hitter). What are these bunch of young prospects/players that you speak of in this organization? Danks is one and he is only 2 years younger than Cabrera. We have no one of superstar quality and I don't think Danks is a superstar either. Cabrera is a superstar. Detroit gets talent in the draft because they are willing to overpay for the slot they draft in every year since Dombrowski has been there. Other owners and the commissioner can't stand that they do this and they make a lot of enemies by doing so - but they don't care. Cleveland made a couple of outstanding trades. Minny scouts tremendously well for what they do as an organization.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> [mirror] makes no sense.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Holy Hyperbole, Batman! where?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd never confuse him with Nellie Fox, but he's far from "awful" at 2B. I think that you are being blinded by the obnoxious piling-on and knee-jerk rhetoric so prevalent on Soxtalk this season. You quoted me, no? I can't respond? It is not just this season - this is all the time. I am surprised you haven't noticed. HE IS FREAKING AWFUL! He is beyond that actually. Defnitely the worst in the AL.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :oldrolleyes I don't think you are watching the same Iguchi that the rest of us are then. I think you are being blinded by the 2005 World Series ring or drinking too much Purplesaurus Tadguchi flavored Kool-Aid.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Iguchi's defense? I'm not joking when I say Barfield has 50 pct more range than Iguchi does. Iguchi might be the worst defensive 2nd baseman in baseball. No doubt about it. Iguchi is a terrible defensive player. Awful. AWFUL!

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, McCarthy, who blew ass, and brought us back Danks, came from our system. We have Gio, Broadway, Haeger who could eventually be plugged into the rotation as other pitchers leave in free agency. Those guys would all be gone. But since our minor leaguers suck so bad we have no chance at getting Cabrera anyway because the Marlins do as good a job of minor league scouting as any organization save the Twins. Really Broadway and Haeger can be plugged in? Why? Who says so? They don't look good to me. Plus - why would they be gone? Who wants them? I don't think the Marlins would want either of them since they are so good at scouting like you say they are. McCarthy brought us back Danks and Massett - Texas doesn't have a clue. That doesn't mean that McCarthy doesn't blow ass. So we get Cabrera and our minor league system is the same as it is now? Sign me up! I think Fields, Danks, Sweeney, and Billingsley would be a good place to start with Florida. Then go from there.

QUOTE(Reddy @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> i actually dont think he is an upgrade over barfield - especially in the long term. I don't think so either. Give me Barfield any day over Iguchi.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A lot of us are trying to trade Contreras. What are the odds that he waves his no trade clause? I don't know. Let's try it. Say this team is going nowhere. Would you like another chance at winning a championship? QUOTE(striker62704 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is the largest group of underachievers I have ever seen. Anyone over 30 should be sent packing. Even Paulie. Thanks for the memories.......NEXT! Jerkish move. Paulie signed for less to stay here. He is a good player with a good contract. There is no reason to trade him.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jesus you're snippy today. If you really think the Sox are going to raise payroll by $25M after this year then you're out of your mind. Their pattern is to put all the money they make through attendance back into the payroll, this year's attendance will probably turn out to be moderately higher than last year hence a $4-$5M increase in payroll. If they're going to raise payroll to $120M like you seem to be suggesting then they're going into red and dipping into their own pockets, something JR and crew have never done. You can go ahead and assume I'm wrong since I'm not the cooperate accountant but you're going to be very disappointed when they spend somewhere between $90-$100M next year. I'm just saying - if they went after AROD on mulitple occassions then there is definitely a way to get this thing done without going over their budget. Becuase if it wasn't they would have never even entertained the idea of going after them. LIke I said Ichiro pays for himself through merchandise and the attendance he brings in. If that team wins at least a playoff berth then the attendance will be there to pay for that team. I am not looking at 200 million - maybe between 110 and 120? Come on. To have a team like that? We are Chicago baseball damnit! Act like it!

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because we would no longer be able to bring up pitching prospects to fill in open spots in the rotation because every major league quality pitching prospect would be in the Marlins organization. And if we have no talent to bring up, how are you going to Cabrera in the first place? The one thing that could change this is the revenue that the teams will receive from the new Extra Innings deals. We are bringing them up now? Where? Danks did not come from our system. McCarthy blew ass. We would still have the same pitching prospects as before - except Danks I believe. I don't see the difference between how it is now an how it would be after the trade. And the Extra Innings deal would hurt the Sox financially? How so?

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> we are 8 games under .500 and going nowhere....selling mode is inevitable......and clearly there are some guys who are prolly gonna go...buerhle, dye, maybe iguchi...the question now isnt if, but how much how much is too much to trade? Can we deal buerhle and another starter (probably contreras)? what about offensively? Can we dump dye, iguchi, and more (though i suppose the only tradable commodities are konerko thome and AJ)? Clearly the untouchables are Danks and Jenks, Fields, and Gio. I ask only because i would think teams would be willing to gamble on contreras who has big game experience. But if we trade buerhle, and then afterwards someone comes and offers us a bunch for garland/contreras/vazquez....you have to listen, right? I guess alot depends on the return we get, but for the sake of discussion, lets say we only get young players who will be ready to contribute either in 08 or 09 (ie guys like billingsley, etc) simply because we aren't trading for crawford, ichiro or miguel cabrera (at least not midseason) I keep Buehrle and re-sign him. I trade away Contreras, Dye, Iguchi. If I can get a proven great veteran I will trade prospects to get him and I would give a lot of them. Fields and Gio are not untouchable to me. QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't be surprised is Iguchi is still here in 2008. That would suck. I can't stand him.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jun 13, 2007 -> 03:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They have Jacobs at 1B, who is pretty young and has good pop. Plus they have Gaby Hernandez who will either play third or first and should be a decent player. Hermida is back out in RF so they think they should be OK there. They need an upgrade in CF over the platoon of Abercrombie and Almeazaga, and LF seems to be in good hands with Willingham. Their holes would be 3B and CF, Fields would fill 3B but unfortunatley all of our CF prospects have come up and fallen on their face so to speak. Then amount of value that the Marlins would need to get in return would cripple the Sox financially. We would have no prospects to promote and would have to live and die through free agency until the farm system could be rebuilt. Do you see their farm system now? Who are they promoting now? In the future? I don't see a difference between what you are talking about and the way it is now. The amount of value the Marlins would need to get in return would cripple the Sox financially? Please explain.