Chisoxfn

To put an upside / positive spin on this, the FA market is crap and none of Boston, Texas, or the Dodgers landed an ace, so they will all still be in the market for an ace in the off-season. But like they say on ESPN 1000, they can easily understand not moving Q / Sale, but don't understand why other guys weren't moved. Utter failure.

QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 01:14 PM) They have the off-season to show me something. They go into 2017 trying to compete with the same core, I'm out. For real. It just isn't worth the time and/or energy. Agreed - It just seems like if you were going to do that, you should have started now, moving Robertson, Miguel, and Shields. I can live with holding on Frazier (thinking he has more to deliver and we'd be selling on the "lower" side now) and even to a lesser extent Melky (even though I'd have moved him now), but I have no basis for the other guys and then with Sale and Q, I think the off-season is the best time cause I prefer getting both a top young talent and top minor league talent (and to be frank, I think that is what Sale is worth). If we could have gotten Moncada and Benit+, then I'd have been game.

Everything was merged.

Interesting.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 01:06 PM) I don't understand the bafflement. I get that you guys think they should blow it up, but why are you shocked that they aren't? They're a .500 team with all of their core players controlled next year. They just decided to keep trying to build and win. I'm not saying it's the RIGHT decision, but it's not a confusing one either. I think the struggle is they have specifically talked about how "mired" in mediocrity they were, which makes you think they were ready to change course. All of this goes back to managing expectations and the Sox tend to struggle in the case of how they manage fans expectations, etc. Technically, the team has gotten better each of the past two years, but the question is, how do you take the next step forward, especially when some of your best players are getting closer and closer to not being under team control (not an urgent issue, but a year or two years from now, it certainly becomes one).

QUOTE (EvilJester99 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 01:05 PM) Giants get Matt Moore Big get for struggling Giants (he's looking like he's getting healthy again). Wonder what the price was.

QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 01:04 PM) Just if a last minute trade got through and has yet to be announced. Gammons says to wait a half hour. Usually bigger name, last minute deals, come through in the first 10 to 15 minutes. Sometimes smaller names can slide a little later.

QUOTE (chisox802 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 01:00 PM) Yep. Other teams had no problem making deals. I really think that the FO really just does not which direction to head. Unfortunately, I think the biggest struggle with the front office is the fact that it might not be in a very good position to succeed, because it is somewhat handicaped by ownership expectations, which kind of limit the willingness to "rebuild". As a result, I feel as if they are mired in the, well if you can do X and Y perfectly, I give you approval to do it, but if not, we should do X, but I can't give you full resources from a FA perspective. I might be wrong but It started this most recent off-season where they "half-assed" it, yet again (for a lack of a better term). Just unwilling to go all the way in and it left them in that middle zone. While none of the moves debilitated the franchise, the lack of true foreceful direction, prevents you from making the best longer term decisions for the health of the franchise (whether it is giving that little extra in cash to go for it or saying, yes, lets make a deal and I'm okay with a new timeframe).

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) In years past when they did nothing we heard they were going to do nothing a half hour before the deadline. I am sure they are still working right now. Usually a stuff keeps coming for at least 15 minutes past the deadline (in the sense that it has been delivered to the league, but came together last minute so less likely leaked).

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:50 PM) Hector Santiago to the Twins Weird. Twins buying, eh.

QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:48 PM) To be perfectly honest, I would be just fine if they said Moncada, Benintendi, and Devers for Sale. Done Deal. Obviously, I don't know the specifics of the discussions, but if were dicking around with lottery ticket A Ball players being added im just dumbfounded by it. That's 3 of the top 23 prospects in baseball, 2 of which are performing at a high level in Double A. That's MORE than enough for Chris Sale. This will more than likely be an unpopular take on the proposed Sale packages I would agree, if we had those three in a deal, I'm game. I'd ask for more, but I'd be in general, okay. I'd probably sweeten it with Robertson to add Swihart to the package and call it a day (would push for more, but would settle at that). I just don't know if Boston has / would offer. None of us will ever really know (unless the trade happens).

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:31 PM) I will say, it seems like prospects are becoming more and more "sure things" with scouting getting better and better, due in party to technology. But still, you need a good chunk of them. The Texeira deal needs to look like peanuts in comparison. Yeah, I really don't think they are becoming more of "sure" things today vs. the future. Maybe a little bit, but 2012 isn't that long ago and there is a pretty high bust rate on that list.

QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:31 PM) I have no interest in getting Bradley, Betts, or Bogaerts in any deal for Sale/Q.. to me, that trade makes no sense. Not only would it lower the package, we would open a massive hole in our rotation and while getting a very good position player, I don't see how we are in any different situation than we are in now. If they are going to trade Sale/Q, it should be for a haul of top prospects. I know that they all wont work out, but I like that road better in terms of how this team can have a real chance of building something special Why not around one of the B's plus Benitendi or Moncada plus Swihart, etc? It can be both and depending on the B, you are still getting a ton of long-term value. Plus, I think part of this change is more realizing we can develop pitching and not position talent, so it is more retooling the club around position players, hoping we can leverage our historical strength's to rebuild the rotation.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:27 PM) True, but I guess where the conversation becomes interesting is would we rather get Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, and Shihart now, or Betts, Swihart, and Kopech in the winter? I think for me I'd rather take my chances now with the former. I think if Moncada and Benintendi and the others were in the deal, you'd probalby have it done. The issue more is with the fact that Boston is only willing to give up 1 plus the other prospects.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:13 PM) I agree that prospects are a gamble. But Sale/Q have already been here for 3/4 (healthy) years and what do we have to show for it??? So maybe we need to move one or both next winter for established ML players and see if that works. I've been preaching the fact that I think the off-season opens up a lot of other options to change the game. We could still get the right offer today and pull the trigger, but a wider list of players is available in the off-season, and this is a historically awful FA crop, which should enhance the value of guys like Sale / Q. Of course you do run the risk that someone gets hurt between now and the off-season and thus they no longer become a "chip".

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:04 PM) I know everybody is probably stuck over in Trade Winds but thought I'd bring this up here. I, as much as anybody kind of want to see a trade for a sake of a trade. Not that it makes sense. I am just so frustrated as a fan. My levels have reached heights they've never been before. For the first time since 2004 I am no longer watching games daily. I mean, through it all, I've watched 120-130 games a year. Basically if it could be worked into my schedule I'd watch. I've bought season tix (partial) almost every year.. but now? Done. I've started watching Astros and Cubs baseball, or just any random game of solid teams because I enjoy watching fun, fundamental baseball. Robin, the FO, the players all have not done this. Now besides my rambling anger I just brought up the 2012 prospect list. Now, it has always been my belief that if you trade a Sale or Q you'll never win the trade. It's just not possible. And I think this list confirms it... http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/ Who cares what their rankings are? Dylan Bundy? psh. he's a nobody. Not even a top 10 prospect is a guarantee. So to me, how am I going to trust our FO and scouts to correctly identify the good ones in a trade? Our whole existence is being bad at identifying and developing talent. Just saying maybe keeping Sale and Q isn't the worst. Mediocrity or not. That list is why I think the Sox deal Sale / Q in the off-season, because young major league talent becomes an additional chip (vs. just the minor leagues). It also highlights why you need to get quite a few talented pieces.

QUOTE (heirdog @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:08 PM) I'm talking about just the trade deadline. Sure they are in better spots than us as a team but the "what if" someone else gets Sale is what they are sweating and may push their chips in if they fear the worst. Hahn just needs to wait. That being said, Hahn needs to offload DRob and Melky at a minimum. I don't get the feeling Melky is going anywhere (haven't seen his name mentioned in the slightest).

I'd presume the hold up with Robertson is some suitors want him in a package deal, so we are holding out hope on bigger deal, while potentially having other deal on the table. Would presume we'd see Robertson get moved within next half hour (as you can't run risk much past that and then you just turn the attention to other things). Problem with more guys available, means more tasks being jumbled, and higher risk of things not getting done in time.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 12:00 PM) Yeah I don't think Tate moves the needle much in the Yankees for Sale sweepstakes, he's fallen pretty hard this year. This is further evidence why you need to get a ton of top talent to justify trading people like Sale / Q. They are going to be here for 3 / 4 years and we are able to get that value over that span (knowing they are already the best at their respective positions in the game (i.e., top 10-15). It is why this "surplus" value of minor league talent is so absurdly overrated.

I legit ponder that Sale to Yanks is only real shot at this point (of moving Sale). Cashman and Kenny have historical strong working relationship and Cashman usually is a pretty fair guy when it comes to deals and they are looking long-term and have other ways of supplementing needs. Tate gives them extra ammunition, but Tate is also pretty overrated. His performance has been pretty lousy. ERA over 5 in A ball. People are down on Fulmer, but he's been better than Tate this year.

QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 11:51 AM) Yeah, I made a general observation of this teams deadline short comings in the Chris Sale thread. I see how that post could have confused you into thinking I want them to trade Sale for whatever was offered regardless of how "good" the package was. To clarify so you don't lump me into the rest of the meathead crowd who just wants to see something done just because.. I want this team to pick a direction to go in, there are pieces on this team that can and should be moved today.. If you are out of it (Which we are) then moves need to be made to either 1.) Support the team next season (If they believe they can still compete) or 2.) Support the team in the future (If they believe its time to rebuild) Sitting on your hands and doing nothing, that's not a direction. As a fan, I want to see them commit one way or the other. Don't come out and tell me were mediocre and then not do anything, that tells me you're ok with being mediocre. Not to put words in your mouth, but I think my follow-on post to yours probably summed your line of thinking up. We said we are mediocre, now we expect to see some action today and more in the off-season. Do not be the same team starting next season. In no way were you saying you had to move Q or Sale or you'd be pissed, you simply said, you need to start that process now (that means moving Robertson, Shields, etc) and then continuing that effort in the off-season (and even then, it doesn't mean you necessarily move both Sale & Q, but you need to move one of them before the start of next season to truly shift the balance / change the philosphy). Whether it works, who knows, but when the current path is mediocrity and you've publicly indicated it, then you need to do different. That could be spending $1B on payroll too (and go the opposite direction) but they need to change things up because the current status isn't working (if you listen to what Hahn has said).

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 11:50 AM) Rangers just gave up Tate, for Beltran I see the Yankees happening.

Today, I'm wearing my favorite White Sox T under my business clothes as a sign of support / goodluck. My CFO got a good kick out of it when I mentioned it to him this morning.

I will say this, if we don't trade Shields and/or Robertson, my opinion changes slightly, but those are two guys (you could kind of include Miguel Gonzalez in there as well), who don't fit into our longer term plans and probably don't see there value go anywhere but down (and the long-term value they bring to the organization, in light of where we stand from a competiveness perspective. When it comes to Sale / Q, I think unless we get literally blown away, the better offers and the better risk adjusted return most likely exists in the off-season, when young, major league talent, becomes available. Now if we go through next off-season, without having made quite a few moves (with some happening now and some happening in the off-season) to begin the retooling (based upon Hahn's recent statements), then I think everything Tru said becomes a real factor. Basically don't start next season without having significantly changed the course / path towards success.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 11:34 AM) Keith Law just stopped short of calling Bickford worthless. He would appear to be someone who has been extremely over-hyped. Reports from his Fullerton days weren't overly kind. Best thing that probably happened to him was him leaving and thus not showcasing himself. Probably someone who benefited a lot from the "hype" train / raw ability train. That said, I'd have been interested in him nonethless. Still potential upside.