Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 10:32 AM) They just lost to the Nets. The team is a clusterf*** and needs a huge shakeup. The Warriors lost to the Bucks (and almost lost to them twice). Bucks are tied for 5th fewest wins in the association. Even good teams have bad losses. IIRC, 72 wins Bulls team also lost to some pretty bad teams (Nuggets / Bucks if I recall).

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 09:53 AM) There isn't a player on the Bulls roster other than Butler below the age of 30 that is an above average NBA starter (that includes Rose until proven otherwise because he has either been hurt, terrible or mediocre at best for 4 years now). I certainly hope they aren't thinking this team is one piece away. Below 30 part is tough. Noah / Taj / Gasol are all average to above average players. Yes, they are older, but they provide value. I look at this another way, who on this roster do I think are assets and tradeable for an asset (how valuabe the asset, one can debate, but we'll include): Roster: Solid Value Or Better: Butler Gasol Noah (presuming he bounces back from injury...he was playing very good and is an expiring which in an of itself is an asset) Taj Niko (value is lowering, but he's still young and a lot of teams would like to see if he can develop...especially as teams are looking more and more into those stretch 4's...and I think plenty of teams will look at his game and presume he can improve that 3) Some Value (but still a solid chip): McDermott (not sure where to put him, clearly he's taken major steps forward this year and looks like a productive player on a playoff team) Snell (clearly a rotational guy) Bobby Portis (far more upside in keeping the guy right now...looks like he has a ton of potential...whether he pans out or not, who knows, but a lot to like) Non Assets (some of these guys could be moved, but you are getting zero back): MDJ (purely due to injury) Brooks Moore Hinrich All other bums that I ignored Hell if I know: Drose (I'd have put him on non-assets except for the fact that Zach Lowe seemed to think he's still an asset).

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 09:50 AM) I agree with the bolded parts of this. There's clearly an issue with these guys playing together. That's on Hoiberg to fix and at least he's trying with a variety of different rotations. A lot of these games have come down to energy and some good ol' fashioned TWTW. Outside of that one blowout (Hornets I thinK) and the Knicks game where they were dead, this team seems to have had pretty big leads at different points of almost every game. That tells you the talent is their. What they f*** they do with that is beyond pathetic, but this team has to learn to play complete basketball. Problem is right now their are at least three players with agendas: Rose, Butler, and Gasol.

It was a quick one. Epicentered in Newport Beach...which coincidentally is where I am sitting at work. 2.9 on the rictor scale. Lots of activity though...apparently their was a 3.2 quake in Newport a couple days ago. Presuming it is on the Newport Inglewood fault but need Balta's input. Not used to stuff epicentered in this area.

EARTHQUAKE...damn that was a jolt.

On a sidenote, if things do go south, my presumption is Gar is gone. I think Pax job is probably safe and he'd be allowed to bring in a new front office person.

Wilbon's take is pretty good. About their lack of attention and I agree it has to come down to coaching. That said, it was a problem a year ago. Will be curious how they respond after the extended time off.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 09:13 AM) The other part of this to not ignore though is...with Butler under contract and the young guys the Bulls do have, plus the general weakness in the East that will keep them in the playoffs yearly, they're going to be able to convince themselves that they're only 1 piece away and that they don't need to do a major overhaul. They might not be wrong either, but then they'll just keep trying to acquire that "one last piece" and whiffing on it or having it not be enough. (Which does sound vaguely familiar). This is probably true. No idea how it pans out. Somehow I just think Rose is sitting back going, see Jimmy, you aren't the star....I'll keep playing meh and prove that point and than one day I'll flip my switch and bam (I'm not saying rose could actually do it).

QUOTE (shipps @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 09:07 AM) I dont know. Under the Thibs years I would have agreed with you every time but this year is different. It actually feels like it is on the verge of being an absolute full out disaster where they may be under .500. Not only is it the losses that they are taking but they look totally confused. They all have their own agendas out there on the court. Rose thinks he is someone he is not. Butler actually thinks he is the superstar which he is not. They dont play together. They dont play for each other. They dont buy into the new coach. They arent a happy team. They are all looking to the future when they are not a part of the Bulls other than Jimmy. Hoiberg is in over his head. This is a bad situation that I unfortunately only see it getting worse. This is Trestman 2.0 NBA version. I agree that it could turn into that, but I don't really think Hoiberg is Trestman 2.0. That said, time will tell. This team has had its no shows, but it has also beaten some of the best teams in the league. It should have a much better record than it does, but it can't figure out how to play a complete game of basketball. That said, that problem isn't necessarily new to them as they had this issue last year. In many ways, they are the same team as last years team, except offensive efficiency has taken a huge hit, probably largely due to Rose being absolutely horrendous (as well as impacts from transitioning to a new system, which may or may not work). That said, the east is still awful and they could sleep walk to an above .500 record. A week ago they were the 2 seed in the East (IIRC). They than had a 4 OT game they lost and no shock they lost the 2nd part of the back-to-back after that game (which shouldn't be a shock). The game against the Nets was pathetic but it could also serve as yet another wake-up call. One thing for certain, someone needs to lock these guys in a room for Christmas and all the other holidays and bust out some kooombaayhaaa's. Winning solves a lot though and this team is capable of putting a streak together and than building off that. I do expect some changes to be made personnel wise though. Getting MJD back at some point would be huge as well.

QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 09:06 AM) It is pretty unlikely that they will keep Avi on the Major League club, just to face LHP, as a platoon with La Roche. Management would more likely send him to AAA, where he can get playing time. If they only acquire one of the big 3 outfielders, Shuck probably stays, as the 4TH. Why is that? LaRoche can't hit lefties and Avi can hit righties. You also have Melky and other guys and need to give them rest. Why wouldn't we carry 5 outfielders? Especially when you are going to have a super sub like Sanchez on the bench?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 08:16 AM) at this point I dont really blame the players for not caring. last year was a front office/coach divorce that was extremely public, and they put in what looks like a puppet figurehead who is starting to look out of his league. Im not gonna say it cannot get better, but this is a s*** show right now It is absolutely a pivotal moment for the organization.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 07:21 AM) Oh he will waive it. He said after the last game that "My career is winding down and I want to play for a team that wants to win a championship" The guy has already told media he is opting out after this season, he sees that this is pretty toxic and isnt looking promising. I actually think he might be part of the problem at this point.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Dec 23, 2015 -> 07:03 AM) Wondering if he'd waive that though to move to a contender if the Bulls are around the .500 mark come February. Anyone thinking this team will hover around .500 is delirious. Unless they blow it up, this team will still be a top 3 seed in the East when all is said and done.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 02:33 PM) So who would move to RF? Melky or Gordon? I am thinking Melky. He will be brutal but Waton should be able to help him a bit more, and one thing Melky does really well defensively is throw. I still say Gordon but I understand the argument to not move a guys strength into an unknown. Or maybe all of this truly is a smoke-screen to bid up the Royals price and give further leverage for someone like Cespedes. To be frank, as long as money / years are right, given team needs, I can't see how Sox could go wrong with either of these guys (based upon facts known today).

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 02:31 PM) Clearly all of their other offseason and trade deadline moves backfired in an equally spectacular fashion. Clearly having the minor league system to add both Cueto and Zobrist without paying either anything saved a lot more money than Alex Rios cost them last year. Actually, the likes of Guthrie, Vargas and Infante cost them even more. Ok...so go make a post that says..quit following the Sox because all of their past moves suck and move on. None of this has to do with the topic at hand. This is my last and final warning...enough of this nonsense. If you want to post in this thread, post about Gordon...if you want to post about all the other moves the sox could have done and how their past destines them for failure than create another thread or just give up cause what joy is their in even following a team if you truly think they never have any chance of ever succeeding based upon the past.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) So your argument is that with Victor Martinez instead of Dunn from 2011-2014 we never would have made the playoffs? The only reason we were so close in 2012 was probably related to that injury weakening Detroit relatively. Dude...what the hell does any of this have to do with Gordon. Please create another thread for this poppy-cock. This is the thread to discuss Alex Gordon not Victor Martinez, Adam Dunn and Paco Martin.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 02:12 PM) From Hahn's comments last week, it seems to me the Avi shipped has perhaps sailed. He talked about his talent, but I don't think another year of experimentation is even a thought. He admitted he needed an OF. And by getting that OF, you now have the ability to ideally leverage a combination of LaRoche / Garcia / Melky to the best extent possible (thus maximizing all of their effectiveness). Avi in a more limited role is a much more valuable player, imo and it could also still provide him with the opportunity to expand his horizon.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 02:10 PM) Once again, when was the last time we made a move that simultaneously helped the White Sox and hurt an AL Central divisional rival at the same time? Sox history is Sox history until it isn't. 2005 did happen. That still doesn't mean with all the financial/media market advantages in the last 25 years that we shouldn't have earned 3-5 more playoff spots than we have... I don't really care about the past. All I care is about what happens now. I also only care about what upgrades the Sox. If it happens to downgrade a rival, great. Getting Adam Dunn had nothing to do with the Tigers getting Victor Martinez. It wasn't pulling from a contender. Dunn was coming from the NL. Or maybe I should point out to the 2005 offseason and how Sox beat everyone else and won the series. Either way, that is history, what does it matter?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 01:55 PM) Honestly, Gordon to the White Sox doesn't happen because we are never on the right side of the ledger in these deals where we add and subtract from a divisional foe... 2003 Kenny Rogers cheaply to the Twins, Sox have no fifth starter and fall short 2010 Thome to the Twins, Kotsay/A. Jones to the Sox Miguel Cabrera to Detroit because of better minor league talent in Maybin and Miller at time of trade 2011 Dunn to the White Sox, Victor Martinez to the Tigers That's three White Six playoff teams alone (2003/2010/2012) and the likelihood of even more with Miggy Cabrera in the fold that whole time. See below. You could make the same arguments even about last year...had the White Sox brought in Morales instead of LaRoche, C.Young/Madson/Volquez/Cueto instead of Shark, Robertson and Duke...Zobrist over Cabrera. Granted, the Royals were willing to sacrifice much of their farm in the process, as they didn't pick up any of the two month remaining salaries for Cue-to and Zobrist. I can't think of any time predating 2000 where we hurt a divisional foe and helped ourselves simultaneously. Guess it has to happen someday, right? Well Kenny Rogers and Thome moves were pretty minor moves in grand scheme of things. They had positive effects but we aren't talking anything magnitude of the other two moves. And you can't even get your facts right on the Miggy deal. That had everything to do with the Marlins being willing to take on the bust that was Dontrell Willis (and his contract). Nothing to do with prospects.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 01:42 PM) Upton's been on the DL a grand total of 1 time in his career, in 2008. Damn facts.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 01:36 PM) Pretty sure that would be salary cap impossible. They could actually pretty easily pull a trade together with a varying degree of pieces (between two teams). Lakers have a ton of flexibility in terms of contracts that could be moved to make numbers work. For example, Bulls could trade Rose and picks for Hibbert & Russell. Trade easily fits under the current cap structure. In no way, shape or form am I necessarily saying that deal works for Lakers. But you could add other parts / components, such as Rose, Snell, Niko and picks for Hibbert, Russell and Swaggy P. Bulls save significant cap space going forward and get an asset in Russell (they also get stuck with Young...but in the right system he could be a solid enough fit off the bench). Of course for any truth to this deal to be possible, the Lakers need to be pretty desperate for a higher profile move (and be pretty sour on Russell) and the Bulls need to be ready to be done with Rose as well as still optimistic in Russel. Could even be that the Lakers view Mirotic and Snell as other solid pieces as they attempt to collect additional assets.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 01:15 PM) LOL Chisoxfn, come on, Rose ain't getting you a recent #4 overall pick. Rose for nick young maybe. I'm not saying the Lakers would do it, but honestly, you haven't heard anything until you come out to LA land and listen to their hot takes on the Lakers and Russell for that matter. A lot of people, including educated analysts, are writing him off as a bust. Lakers fans are desperate and the org is a hot mess. I think any deal would have to involve additional pieces (clearly) and I think their is no reality to it, but I never thought you could deal Rose and his contract for an asset (as Lowe alludes is possible).

I was being kind of sarcastic but kind of not. Lakers are desperate. Get Russell and than make a crazy push for KD.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Dec 22, 2015 -> 12:57 PM) Pau seems like the likeliest guy to be traded. However, it doesn't make a ton of sense to trade one of your best offensive weapons on a team that is terrible on offense. The main issue for the offensive woes has to be Rose. I mean, the guy has an O-Rating of 87. Just insanely atrocious. Pair that with Snell (an O-Rating of 89) and you just get a terrible offense. I think the key concept here is whether Pau is a piece that fits with the offense we are trying to run (vs. the offense we are running). Pau plays his best basketball in lower tempo / half court sets. Hoiberg doesn't want to do it. Now ignoring the fact that Rose has played like hot garbage, Jimmy can play in transition, Noah can run, Taj can run, etc. The oddest man out in the overall system is Pau (similar to how Pau was an odd man out when the Lakers transitioned to D'Antoni).

Oh....to hog this thread, one other thing I found of note from Lowe's piece. I still say, trade Rose for Russell. Lakers need their "star" to market.