GreenSox

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ May 14, 2016 -> 07:41 PM) They haven't developed a position player to a MLB starter in about a decade. Sale and Hudson are about the extent of the quality starters they developed. Rodon is still in process and he was well developed when drafted. I doubt they'd have screwed up Schwarber had they chosen him instead. One issue with the hitters, though, is that the Sox draft a lot of raw hitters in the first round.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Carlos Lee was highway robbery for Podsednik in return. It was the key move for 2005, not for value received (5 WAR for 2 WAR), but because it gave them the salary flexibility to fill 2 more holes. Without AJ and Iguchi, the Sox don't win anything. What's interesting is that the 2005 team was built through small moves and our own young players. Why not replicate that approach? Thome was a 9.8 WAR player from 2006-08. Thomas and Rowand delivered 10.8 WAR in that period (not including Rowand's 2008 as he would have been a FA). And there's Gio (fortunately the Sox got him back in one of Williams' best trades ever, only to dump him).

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 09:15 AM) Ritche: Oh no! We lost...Kip Wells? Loaiza: Steal for Kenny. Garcia: Lost nothing of consequence, re-signed him after he was with the team (thus, not a rental) and helped win the World Series. Strong win. For brevity, I won't quote your entire list. Many on your list include young-player for young-player trades that I said the Sox were good at. They should do more of those types of trades. However, 1)Lose-lose is never a "Win" Neither it is a neutral experience when you are trading prospects for the veteran. It is a LOSE. 2)Prospects have value. Trading a top 10 prospect (which Reed was) and a starting catcher for a 2 month rental of an above average pitcher is bad business. Sox could have gotten much more for him. The examples of over-pay abound. You have to consider their value AT the time of trade. Williams traded 3 of the org's top 5 prospects for Swisher; one year later he flips him for 1 utility infielder and a couple of organizational minor leaguers. Edwin Jackson had an ERA in excess of 5 and a high salary - Az was looking for a salary dump; somehow, Williams gave them the org's top 2 pitching prospects for this player. No sense of value. Just 2 examples. 3)The veteran should be the "sure thing." You are trading unknown for known. Williams had an uncanny ability to bring in average veterans. 4)2 playoff appearances in 15 years of this type of trading with an above average payroll.

Lots of front-office apologists who refuse to look at facts, I see. Here's another fact: TWO playoff appearances in 16 years under this front office. The list is long: Ritchie, Garcia (1/2 year rent), Swisher, Vasquez, Edwin Jackson, Samardzija, Peavy and Frazier. Only Thome could be considered a positive, but if you factor in the fact that jettisoning Frank was part of that move, it is closer to neutral. Bourgeois is 34, has an OPS of .627 in .708 major league at bats. To use him for anything other than Charlotte filler would be beyond belief......except that this org. loves its veterans. Heck Leury is 25 and has an OPS of .823 in Charlotte this year.

What's stunning, well not that stunning, is the patience and optimism about OTHER team's young players who can't hit a lick, compared to the patience, optimism of SOX young players who haven't hit yet. By the LARGE consensus hereon, Trayce Thompson was nothing but a fourth outfielder. And that's even though he absolutely raked in September. The consensus has already ruled that Saladino and Sanchez are utility infielders. Bradley is a nice example of someone who has talent, didn't play well in his first ML attempts, but was still good. Sure they could have dumped him. But to acquire that player now, would require a top 50 prospect and a couple of other Bs Inciarte is a slap hitter with no power who got lucky last year that his slaps found holes...the stats revealed that. Could he develop into something? Perhaps.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ May 17, 2016 -> 05:05 AM) Well that's just not accurate. It's Extremely accurate in trades where Sox acquire an accomplished player. It's been true since Kenny Williams started making trades and Hahn has continued the tradition of vastly overpaying, if not amped it up a notch. Caufield's list is instructive because it shows the Sox are pretty good at making trades for players that haven't yet accomplished a lot in the majors. Why the Sox don't stick to those I have no idea except that the last 2 field staffs have had a general distaste for developing young players.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 14, 2016 -> 10:00 PM) Pitching in San Diego in meaningless games in one of the friendliest parks for pitchers isn't the same as pitching in the American League. (The likes of Clayton Richard and Eric Stults were made to look good out there). Look at Shields' 2014 stats with the Royals, particularly the 2nd half of the year and the post-season. Giving away Anderson and Fulmer AND paying his terrible contract would be insane. Now, if they were willing to pay for half of it or 40% and take two prospects (maybe Adams would be the one dealt, along with Hawkins), it might at least be plausible. There is no way that Shields' price is anything more than a single C prospect; anyone who pays more than that is insane. This team has holes. They may win anyway, they may not. Cleaning out the farm for the other team's veteran du jour won't change that. It be fixed in the future with an influx of YOUNG talent.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 14, 2016 -> 10:00 PM) Pitching in San Diego in meaningless games in one of the friendliest parks for pitchers isn't the same as pitching in the American League. (The likes of Clayton Richard and Eric Stults were made to look good out there). Look at Shields' 2014 stats with the Royals, particularly the 2nd half of the year and the post-season. Giving away Anderson and Fulmer AND paying his terrible contract would be insane. Now, if they were willing to pay for half of it or 40% and take two prospects (maybe Adams would be the one dealt, along with Hawkins), it might at least be plausible. There is no way that Shields' price is anything more than a single C prospect; anyone who pays more than that is insane. This team has holes. They may win anyway, they may not. Cleaning out the farm for the other team's veteran du jour won't change that. It may be fixed in the future with an influx of YOUNG talent.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ May 13, 2016 -> 10:02 AM) I think you have to look at the totality of the draft to judge it. Especially in the new structure. Even if they get a guy at 10 that was seen as more 15-20, if they save money and then get a second 10-20 guy at 27, that's a win. If they can pull that off. That would require some self awareness of the part of the player that he is a reach. I guess you work that out with the agent ahead of time and telling the elite for the player and they agree ahead of time to sign for 15 to 20 money. if they don't agree you just can't reach like that and leave it to negotiations because the agent will come up with 20 charts showing that this player could've been picked in the top 8.

Anderson comes up in September. That will give them a month of experience and he can take over next year

I suggest he start earning it.

QUOTE (Tex @ May 11, 2016 -> 07:38 AM) I'm interested in how you came to that conclusion. The umpire as part of the sport is far more part of the culture of baseball than referees are in football, hoops, et al. Pretty obviously.

Players need time to settle in before if you can tell if they are a bench player or starter material. Sanchez may not be versatile enough for the bench...probably isn't.

sorry double post

Sox absence on international front in the year when clearly should go all-in is consistent with the way they've viewed their minor-leagues for most of Williams' tenure. Very little interest or patience in building an organization, despite Hahn's words to the contrary. Watch for mature, but low ceiling, reaches in the draft this year.

Pitch framing catchers would object to this idea. The irony is that officials are most ingrained into baseball versus all of the sports. And yet baseball umpires would be the easiest officials to completely replace with automated technology. The only issues would be plays that would require human review.

2 different players. Santana is an aging, overpaid #5 starter (but a good #5, as of now) who you have to pay for 2 more years. He should be had for a middlin prospect. Tehran is a 3/4, young, and the Braves will want a pretty price for him. Tehran is much better...and far more expensive in terms of talent to the other team.

QUOTE (Dunt @ May 10, 2016 -> 12:13 PM) They need improve out of SS the most IMO. SS, like Catcher and to a lesser extent CF, is defense first position. The Sox have below .700 OPS from 3 positions: C, SS and CF. And yet it works out fine. Too high a premium to pay for a SS who can hit and play D (which is why you try to grow your own). Anyone who expected Rollins to hit much this year was in la la land. But he handles the position defensively; we might get a little more O out of Saladino/Sanchez (we might not; but we won't with Rollins) so I would like to see them play a little more.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 10, 2016 -> 05:16 PM) That's not a total Kenny deal, that is a misconception. KW never gave away many pieces that were highly regarded like that, more often than not he traded prospects that just disappeared into other organizations The only guy that he traded that ended up really good was Gio, and he used Gio as a trade chip twice and got some good players back. He got A good player back for Gio: Thome. But that also involved Rowand and pushing out Frank Thomas. Prospects are currency, and while the prospects didn't turn out so hot (although some are producing now), the returns Williams received didn't do a thing either. 2 playoffs in 12/13 seasons. The Sox can do better than the Lose-Lose approach under Williams.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ May 10, 2016 -> 05:35 PM) Adams, Danish, Hawkins, and Engel for Markakis, Teheran, and $5 million. Which team would say no to that deal? You're essentially trading those 4 for Tehran, a mid rotation guy. Pricey. I wouldn't mind having Markakis (although before Avi's started hitting I was more interested), but a reason is that he should come cheap - he really has no trade value. See Rios c. 2012 who had a high salary and a OPS in excess of .700 and, rightfully, zero trade value.

No reason to get rid of him, but his professional veteran status isn't a good reason to keep him. We have others in that category. He's handling the position. Saladino and/or Sanchez should start more than they do, however,

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ May 9, 2016 -> 08:16 AM) There's been a lot of talk about how valuable Jackson has been to the Sox. Not only does he provide outstanding defense in center field, having him on the team has allowed Eaton to move to and thrive in right field. He doesn't have a great bat, but to me his defense more than makes up for that. So, what are the chances the Sox try to sign him to an extension? And if the Sox are interested in doing so, is he interested in staying with the Sox? I know it's early, but it would be hard to imagine taking a step backward next year in the outfield. His defense has been great and these players obviously have meshed well as a team, but as an individual player, he's hitting a .622 OPS. We can find a defensive outfielder. Root for Jacob May to have a good year.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ May 8, 2016 -> 09:31 PM) It's not a great contract but would definitely help us over the next few seasons....do y'all think we could get Joey Votto from Cincy? Given the Cubs success and youth, I can't believe Cincy sees themselves as competitive any time in the near future. Maybe they look to unload that contract now. It's a lot of loot but if we are WS contenders for the next 3-5 years, it's worth making the move. If the Sox are world series contenders for the next 3-5 years, it certainly won't be with THIS team. The Sox lose 2 catchers, 2 starters, the SS and CF after this year. How do you propose to fill those holes by jettisoning young players for one 32 year old? Sure the Sox can sign some of them back, sure maybe another C or CF may be available on a 1 year deal for 2017...but maybe not. And all of these guys are old. And then look at 2018, when we lose our LF, 2b and 3b. And let's talk 32. How confident are you that someone who is now 32 and having a bad year, will produce to elite levels in 3-5 years? Make no mistake....all of this drooling over Reds and Brewers players can only help, if it does help, THIS year. And it will HURT the chances to win in the next 2-5 years. As for trading young pitchers, the Sox have drafted heavily in pitching and as of now have 3 dependable starters in their prime and ZERO in AAA. It certainly is true that the odds of any individual minor league pitcher making the majors as a solid starter is small. But some of these guys in A and AA WILL become ML starters and you need to leave them alone and let them develop. And then, look at the track record of the "stars" the Sox trade for. Pretty ugly. Look at Carlos Gomez, another Brewer, with Houston.

Some guys in Kanny are looking promising. The Dash figured to struggle some this year, but it's really rough right now.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 8, 2016 -> 11:04 AM) Free agent signings are one thing, but when you start talking about trading Rodon or Quintana, Eaton, Fulmer and Anderson, then you're shooting yourself in the foot too much because we don't have the minor league depth remaining to cover for all the loss in talent. yes, what we should do is invest in the farm and sign FAs and make minor acquisitions or young player-for-young player for players we need. No young players for past their prime veterans with bad-splits playing in band boxes.