Jordan4life_2007

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 11:51 AM) I think it's pretty clear what you want, J4L, and that's a system stocked with high-ceiling guys that have the potential to turn into mlb all-stars or superstars. No one is going to fault you for that. It's no secret that you love young players with high-ceilings, and you tend to be very impressed by organizations that have brought players like this to the major leagues recently. I can agree that it would be exciting to bring up a player like CarGo or Kershaw or Stanton or Posey. But I think there are two things in play here that cause you to gravitate towards those teams. First, you tend to see more of our young players and therefore their flaws are a bit more evident. You see guys like Beckham and Sale struggle at times and so the luster wears off a bit more than it might with guys like Kershaw, who you see primarily when he pitches well, on highlight reels and such. Secondly, I think being that you are a fan of the White Sox and not so much these other teams, you get frustrated with the failures of our mlb club and this causes you to become a bit more impatient with the overall scheme of things, whereas you are not a die-hard Rockies fan or Dodgers fan or Marlins fan. You don't become frustrated with the overall scheme of things in those organizations and therefore, you can remain positive on their young prospects because the failures of their mlb club does not frustrate you in the way that the White Sox do. But you read enough message boards to know that despite the rosy outlook of some of these other organization's young players, they have real failures and real issues elsewhere, particularly with their mlb teams, that their fanbases are frustrated too; they're just frustrated about different things. These fans are tired of hearing how great their prospects are and want to see the rubber meet the road. They want to see tangible results. Well, IMHO, the White Sox are much more focused on tangible results than on MiLB rankings or Baseball America or what Keith Law has to say. Perhaps that's because their payroll allows them to approach things this way, and this probably goes hand-in-hand with Kenny's philosophy on the farm system. I think many of the organizations you're high on would love to be in their division race every year. They would be happy to make the playoffs every few years and feel like they have a chance to win the World Series almost every season. That is something that we, as White Sox fans, do indeed have. At least I feel like we do. The simple reality is that almost every team, save for the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe one or two others, have to approach the concept of winning in a particular way. Some teams choose the develop from within route; others try to manipulate the market place a bit; others try to sign big names. And it's been proven that there are more ways than one to reach the ultimate goal of winning a World Series. But while some teams have success with one method, others have success with other methods, and as fans, we tend to see one team succeeding doing one thing, and another succeeding doing another, and we want OUR team to succeed doing them all. Well, in most cases, that is simply not feasible. Excellent post. I don't think I disagree with anything you said. I don't know how many times I have to say that I don't want a team that features 25 homegrown players. But why can't we be like or close to the Red Sox or Phillies? Teams that have proven you can have a productive farm and be competitive at the same time. We're the Chicago White Sox. Not the Florida or Pittsburgh White Sox. Why can't we devote more to scouting, draft and player development? Why can't we go over slot every now and then? All I'm saying is the philosophy we've adopted during the KW era has produced 2 playoff appearances in 10 years. In our division, that it not acceptable. You can come up with a billion excuses. But in this business, that doesn't fly. IMO, 2011 is absolutely HUGE. If we come up short to the Twins again, that's f***ing enough for me. Either get rid of the manager and staff or change the philosophy or something. Enough is enough.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 11:41 AM) WTF? Homegrown relievers? We're back presumably on to the "defining home-grown so narrowly that we can avoid counting guys like Santos, Jenks, and Thornton"...and then on to ignoring Infante and Carter who are probably arriving this year and next, and ignoring the fact that we've traded away guys like Russell, Poreda, etc. This argument was about system depth and what could we hypothetically do if we had multiple injuries. I don't even care about homegrown relievers that much. Though to have 1 or 2 would be nice so you don't have to give 4-year deals to a clearly declining, ballpark dependent Scott Linebrink. Wite's argument is that we could somehow replace anybody on the roster at a replacement level outside of Rios, Dunn and PK. I say hell to the no. I don't think we could replace anybody at a replacement level with what we currently have.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 11:26 AM) What the hell do you want with depth? Players that are above replacement level? Because if they did that, they would not have the team they have right now. You are seriously sacrificing a lot by wanting more. Do you disagree with the fact that the White Sox have a replacement (or perhaps better) player behind every single position on the diamond? With the exception of outfield and starting pitching of course. I don't even see how that's an arguable point. If the Sox were to lose Rios, Konerko, or Dunn for an extended period of time, odds are the Sox would be f'ed anyways. Not comparing him directly, but if the Twins lost Mauer for an extended period of time, what they hell are they going to do? (again, I'm not comparing them directly, merely the importance of them) I have never said the system was good. No one has. All I've said was that they have the depth to handle an injury. Do you want a backup for the backup? You damn right I disagree. I don't see s*** that could come up and play at a replacement level if we lost a starter. Especially pitching wise (not sure what they plan on doing with Sale). And why are you using Joe Mauer as an example of a team being screwed if they lost him? He's one of the top 5-10 players in the game. Of course you couldn't replace him. We'd be f***ed if Juan Pierre went down. And that's sad. We haven't produced a damn homegrown reliever since, I don't know, forever?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 11:15 AM) His career OBP is .347 and it's been .330 or above every year since 2005 (when it was .327). His OBP the last 5 years is .337, and .344 the last 3 years. It's very odd to take a number lower than his OBP last year, lower than the last 3 years, and call that his absolute ceiling. His only above average OBP since 2004 was 2009. He wasn't a full-time player then. And last year was an anomaly due to the ab-normal HBP total. I'd definitely say .335 is his ceiling. Unless he gets hit 20+ times again next year.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 11:03 AM) For a guy who hates minor league baseball you sure seem concerned about it. I completely disagree with your logic about speed to show vs depth of system. Go look at the drafts of any team. See where the people who represent their top prospects are and when they were drafted. It's the last 3-4 years... because most prospects 'aged' more than 3 years in the minors no longer make "top prospect" lists. So, any player from that 3-4 year group who moves through the system more quickly degrades the quality of that team's ranking. Which means exactly squat from the perspective of a major league team, who would rather have the player in MLB rather than making their minors look good. Example: is Cleveland better off than Chicago because Lonnie Chisenhall (drafted the same time as Beckham) was a highly ranked AA prospect this year? Hell no. A much better measure of whether a system sucks, IMO, is to look at the number of busts among high picks. But don't penalize teams for picking players who move through the system quickly. That makes absolutely no sense. This post is all over the place. First of all, what do you mean by "hate the minor leagues"? Because I don't give two s***s about overall minor league records, playoffs and championships? If that means I hate the minor leagues then so be it. You couldn't pay me to care if the Knights won the AAA title or not. Your minor league system serves exactly two purposes: To supplement your major league team with impact talent and to be able to go out and upgrade at other positions with other talent. We've done a solid, not great, job with the latter. But a horrible job with the former during the KW era. And why are you acting as if the only difference between the masses ranking our system at the bottom compared to maybe middle-tier is one first round pick getting to the majors quickly? Now I'm not gonna lie. I don't get to see a lot of these guys. It's not like minor league games are on TV all the time. All I can go by is statistics, scouting reports, projections, age appropriate guys for whatever league they're in, ect. And when our system is consistently ranked in the bottom 5 by people who get paid to do this for a living, that's enough for me. I like Mitchell and Viciedo's potential. Besides that? Color me extremely unimpressed with what we currently have (and I'm not counting Sale, he's not really even a prospect anymore at this point).

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 10:02 AM) Stallworth settled with the family of the victim a little after the criminal sentence was final, but I believe I read the terms were in place for the settlement before the criminal matter was resolved... while obviously it doesn't have a direct effect on the prosecutor, it makes a difference because you didn't have the family of the victim pressuring the prosecutor to throw the book at him. Stallworth's attorney publicly were confident they could have beaten it, but said he pleaded guilty to do what was "morally right." Also, he ran the risk of a harsher sentence than what he got if a judge or jury (not sure how it goes in FL) sentenced him after a trial. Although I believe it was FL also where the ex-NYY just got acquitted of the homicide charge stemming from his DUI and that fact pattern was more horrific (obviously both terrible because somebody died). Yes DUIs are not worth it, I was a public defender for 2 years and for a good portion was in the courtroom that handled DUIs. It is way cheaper and less of a hassle to get your car towed, a 50 mile taxi ride or a hotel room, hell in some cases a helicopter ride would be cheaper. Messed up thing is I had actually called a taxi company because I knew I was blitzed. But when I found out the estimated cost would be something like $43 (I was like 45 minutes away from my house), I just said f*** it. I didn't want to spend that. So ultimately because I didn't want to spend a measly $43 I lost my Explorer (god I miss that car), got my license suspended for three months, and between fines, classes, tests, ect, I dished out a good $3000.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong...Will the Rays net 11 picks next year if they don't resign any of their remaining free agents? That's a crip load of picks.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 07:22 AM) Oh horses***. The only place the Sox don't have enough depth are starting pitching and outfield. Some will argue that Sale is an option as a starter, and quite frankly, he is until the Sox decide otherwise. If not, they'll sign minor league free agents that will be capable of putting up a 6.00 ERA and 5 innings a start...that's all you can ask for out of "depth," isn't it? Outfielders are a problem too, and the same exact scenario presents itself - the Sox will be able to sign MLFAs that will be able to produce a .675-.725 OPS. Again, "depth." Not a starter. Beyond those two spots, the Sox have enough [young] guys who can play. Viciedo can play both 1B and 3B, Escobar can play both 2B and SS, Flowers can play C, and there are a zillion different guys in this system and in every system that can fill in as a reliever. Unless you still consider Jordan Danks as a legitimate prospect, there isn't anybody who can replace Alex Rios while giving you a glimpse into the future. But if Alex Rios gets hurt for 3 weeks, Danks (or anybody else) will fill in just fine. If Joe Mauer goes down for 3 weeks, who in the bluef*** are the Twins going to replace him with? What about Miguel Cabrera? Depth is there to give a team replacement (or slightly above replacement) level production at a bargain price...the Sox will be able to do that. It won't be a sexy name that makes this list, and it won't be a sexy name that is available for trade, but the Sox have enough pieces. --- I love FanGraphs, and it's an incredible site. But considering they downgrade Viciedo and rank him as the #4 prospect...doesn't that throw up a red flag? You've seen Viciedo, and you know he has Vladimir Guerrero type potential. He also has a Wily Mo Pena type floor. Do you honestly believe that Dayan Viciedo is the 4th best prospect in this system? I know I don't. I understand the boom/bust potential, but that potential alone should increase his rating above Scott Brosius and a player who has never played a full season of minor league baseball, don't you think? I'm not arguing that the Sox system is good - it's far from - but if the Sox lose someone important for a long period of time, they're f***ed anyways, because ANYBODY is (save the Red Sox and Yankees, who can just buy more talent). You are freaking out about this, when it's been known for quite some time that the White Sox deal any minor league talent they have for upgrades at the MLB level, while they'll be able to replace anybody over a short period for dirt cheap, pretty much as well as anybody else can. Settle.the.f***.down. So when were ranked in the bottom 5 by every minor league publication there is I'm supposed to believe we have depth? QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 09:38 AM) I think people get all excited over nothing on these rankings. Yeah, our system must suck... 2 of our last 3 top picks are in the majors... rather than sitting in the minors and improving our ranking. They include Sale. As did BA. So one first round pick making it to The Show quickly is not really a viable defense for having such a bad system.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 24, 2010 -> 07:37 AM) And if you increase that .294 BABIP to anywhere near his career total (.320), or the roughly .310 it was over the previous 4 years, that OBP would increase right along side the HBP, and he'd probably get another double or triple out of the deal too. I really think people are making too big of a deal out of the HBP. If people are going to pitch Pierre inside, he's going to lean into the pitch. I guess I didn't watch the games, but I have a feeling they weren't hitting Pierre square in the back or ribs every time he went to the plate, so it was simply a matter of finding a way on base, and rather than swinging at a pitch, he understood that he needed to get on base and did whatever he could to do so. Juan Pierre isn't a good player, and I am not a fan, but he's honestly not a problem. People that b**** about him are seriously just trying to find a scapegoat before the season starts. He's going to hit around .270-.300, he's going to put up an OBP around .330-.350, he's not going to hit for power, he's not going to throw me out on a single to left field after my leadoff double, and he's going to catch pretty much everything in his area. There's plenty of good and bad to go around about his game, but he is quite seriously the least of the worries. Pierre's OBP the last 6 years is .335. An increase in BABIP will not change anything because he doesn't walk. And the HBP total was a complete fluke. We're not talking Craig Biggio here. JP had more HBPs last year than the previous 4 years combined. A .330/.335 OBP is his absolute ceiling.

QUOTE (JPN366 @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 10:53 PM) I like what I saw. Defense is all that needs work. Do you agree that he was an overdraft?

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 10:50 PM) I agree with Jam. Our post 2005 farm has netted us A. Ramirez, Peavy, Ejax, Danks, Floyd, CQ, Pierre. Add recent graduates Viciedo, Morel, and Sale, with Morel being the only real question mark, and sweet fancy moses, that's one hell of a farm. One hell of a GM. Who's farm has outproduced that group of players? Oh, can't forget Mr. Teahen. Haha, man all this typing has made me realize how entirely pointless it is to be upset at our farm. It's damn near our entire roster. What the hell did our farm have to do with netting Ramirez? I'll give you Danks, I guess. Peavy was a salary dump. Unless you really believe a package centered around Clayton Richard was legit. Hudson might very well be better than Jackson going forward and A LOT cheaper. We've gotten one good year out of CQ. Though he was a big reason we one the division. So I can even give you that. Pierre? That was a curse. Again, what does the farm have to do with Viciedo? The jury is still out on Morel and Sale. If Morel can sport a .700+ OPS and Bible Award caliber defense then that's a win. I'm still not sold on Sale. But he should help us either way.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 10:12 PM) Yes, again I agree. You keep arguing with me, yet we are arguing on the same side of the argument. It just seems that way because I'm replying to you. But I'm actually supporting you. Speedy lead-off men and closers are the two most overrated aspects of baseball there is.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:30 PM) I guess the main question that you ask is, do you want to use a very young starter-quality power lefty who was a top 10 pick as your closer, as opposed to a more veteran reliever who is not starter material? Closers are a dime a dozen. If you participate in fantasy baseball, as I know you do, you already know this.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:17 PM) They did the Brewers' list before the Brewers made the Greinke trade. That makes sense. I didn't even click the link. I just wasn't surprised. But even I think we have a better system than the Brewers now.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:13 PM) But see, it doesn't hurt that Sale and Beckham are already producing in the Big Leagues! That is the entire point of the draft! I could give a s*** about this stuff. Why not just have a ranking of draft picks contributions to the MLB club? That seems far more relevant to me. That's a lame excuse. A good farm is as much about depth as it is star power.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:08 PM) Some of us being this low is injury-related luck. Mitchell and Phegley were hurt all year, that hurts. Our #1 pick from last year is already in the bigs, that hurts. Another top level pitcher is off in AZ, that hurts. And Flowers was awful, that hurts. Does anybody here really like Phegley? I saw quite a bit of him on the Big Ten network and I wasn't impressed at all, or at least I didn't feel he warranted a sandwich round pick.

QUOTE (joeynach @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 09:01 PM) http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/t...t-lists-so-far/ The Chicago White Sox 2010 MLB Record: 88-74 (2nd in the AL Central) Minor League Power Ranking: 30th (out of 30) There's a shock. I figured it would be the Brewers or Cardinals. But I'm not surprised at all. I expect BA to rank us right around the bottom three as well.

QUOTE (knightni @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 08:51 PM) I'd rather have the kid as a starter. He has a 10-15 year career as an effective starter. As a effective closer, it's only maybe 7-10. Unless your name is Mariano Rivera and maybe a healthy Bill Wagner, you always take the premium starter over a premium closer. It's A LOT easier to find a guy that can record 3 outs than it is a guy that can record 21-24 outs.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 06:56 PM) Not sure how much of an impact it was, but the guy who hit Adenhart had passed DUI's and was absolutely blitzed where IIRC, Stallworth was pretty much right at the legal limit. Not condoning what happened but they really were two entirely different situations to an extent. Ok then. I really don't remember all the details. I just remember reading that him jaywalking was a big reason Stallworth got off. All I know is I ain't EVER drinking and driving again.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 06:45 PM) The Rockies acquired Lindstrom. Oh f***. Brainfart. Been drinking.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 06:36 PM) I think the Rangers are talking about turning Feliz into a starter. Hence maybe why they traded for Lindstrom. I still believe Feliz has better stuff than Price.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 06:29 PM) And Stallworth got like a month in jail for something similar. Blows your mind sometimes how some of these athletes get away with things. Wasn't the victim jaywalking? And it seems like the family just wanted to cash-in anyway. Pretty sad.

QUOTE (J.Reedfan8 @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 05:17 PM) I didn't think anyone would jump me and Kalapse on the Pierre hate. Not only have you taken the 2nd spot away from me, but the 1st spot away from Kal in the span of a month. I never liked him. I wish the search function worked so I could find threads from '06 of me mocking Cubs fans that talked him up because of his hit total. I had to accept him, obviously, because he was a member of the Sox. But watching him EVERY day took my hate to rarefied levels. I had to actually pimp him for sporting a .345 OBP at one point during the season. And if you take away all those HBPs, it was probably .330 or lower. I just can't get over the fact that the best-case scenario for a starting LF is a single. I just can't.

Kinda off-topic. But the drunk driver that killed Nick Adenhart and two other people got 51 years to life. Whoa! I had already made a pact with myself never to drink and drive again long before that incident. This just reaffirms that.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 23, 2010 -> 05:25 PM) Rhodes signs with Texas. Wonder what that contract might look like. Texas has a pretty nice bullpen with O'Day, Olliver, Rhodes, and then Feliz. You forgot Ogando and Francisco.