Soxbadger

Theres far more compelling evidence that Bonds used steriods than Sosa. My guess is Sosa does something to the tune of .270 30 100. And its pretty evident that not many Sox fans will ever give Sosa any credit, the fact that even some of us will say a word otherwise is a testament to just how good he was. And I personally do not like him and would never have him on any sort of team of mine, but I still have to respect the stats. SB

Teams win Championships, names sell publications. On one hand they will refer to Yankees how they went from the team mentality to the names, and they have not done as well. On the other they will say that unless you get big names, you are not improving. Brosius, O'Neil, etc do not have the clout and names that Giambi, A-Rod, Sheff, etc, but they have a hell of a lot more championships. SB

I doubt the Sox consider them in the plans for the next 2 seasons. By that time, Pods could be gone if he has not produced or if Anderson/Sweeney are tearing it up. Dye and Rowand will be on the last year, Everett and Thomas will probably be gone, meaning that Dye could move to DH. Thus after 2 years there could be 2 starting OF spots, or 1 depending on Pods. Sweeney is really young though, so they may have Anderson penciled in after 2, and Sweeney after 3. SB

I think your friend is wrong. Smith and Payton were really good friends, and most saw Smith as the Payton type runner. IE The guy who worked his ass off over the off season, ran up coal etc. As opposed to Sanders, the player blessed with god given talent who did not put in the hours of a Smith and Payton. SB

Slowik, Can you find that about Walter wanting Barry to break it? Smith and Payton were really tight, Smith even had Payton's family at the game where he broke it I believe. Also Jared talked about Smith in very high regards. Ive never heard of any Sanders Payton connection though. Smith and Paytons Family Also I dont think many would consider Smith out classed by Campbell, Dorsett, etc. SB

Part of being a running back is being able to handle the work load year in and year out. Sanders and Brown may have been more talented, but they quit. So we can say what might have been, or what should of been, but Smith will always be remembered because he never gave up, and maybe it took him longer, but he accomplished it. Also I believe he was the person that Walter Payton would of wanted to have the record, maybe not the most talented guy, but the guy who would out work every other player to make sure that when it was time to play that they never missed a down. ::Shrugs:: There is a lot of Payton in the way Smith played, and maybe hes not a top 5 back, but he certainly is a top 10. And when you think of how many RB's there have been in the history of the NFL, does it really matter if some think hes top 10 as opposed to top 5? SB

Harris can play of, if, and would be a left handed speed bat off the bench. Timo plays, RF, LF, and is a left handed speed bat off the bench. Its kind of pointless to have: Gload, Timo, and Willie on the roster especially when the Sox have desired an interest for a rh bat off the bench. Not exactly sure how Harris would not play Timo's role (hes faster, better defensively, and in my opinion a better hitter). The only thing Timo has is hes liked and makes $1mil. SB

Id rather stab myself in the eye 1million times than keep Timo Perez over Harris. If Harris is moved before Timo, than it is a personal decision, not a statistical one. I dont think Harris will be moved as fast as many seem to think, KW's statements recently seem to be suggesting that they want Harris to step things up and make the team. Also, we arent going to get a utility infielder even close to Harris's quality, and that is considering he doesnt play 3b or SS. SB

Molto, I read it really positively, like Harris accepts that there is competition but just wants a chance. Unfortunately hes already been character assasinated so badly, that anything he says will turn out to be "egotistical", etc. SB

Jimh, Let me preface that I do not trust the media. Part of their job, well the entirety of their job is to sell newspapers. Newspapers do not get sold by happy go lucky articles, they are sold by controversy. The media has an interest that there is controversy, so even where there is none, they will create controversy. You can go back to just last year, how the media was playing the Thomas Guillen thing, Im sure there are hundreds of other examples as well. Second, outside of Steff, no one here has given hard facts as to why Harris has fallen out of favor. It was merely based on conclusions that the media had already come to. Since I do not trust the media, I do not trust any conclusion that is soley based upon what the media has concluded. Third, just because Ozzie and KW may not like Harris, does not mean that I have to agree with them, or that I have to believe that they know best for the White Sox. Just because they have the position, does not mean they are the best for the position. I do not think Ozzie is gods gift to coaching like many others on this board, I am probably in the minority, but there were many circumstances where he made moves that were pretty strange. Also, I think that Harris has become part of a character assassination attempt by the Guillen Williams camp, to try and gloss over the fact that eventhough Harris did not produce that well, he did nothing to really hurt the Sox. Also, I find it very problematic that Ozzie was unable to lead Harris. It seems to me that they think now that they have speed the stolen bases are just going to come. I do not agree with that theory, I think Ozzie needed to step up and say part of the problems was that it was his first year on the job, and he was getting used to calling signs, etc. It would be one thing if Ozzie was saying "We kept giving Harris the steal sign and he refused to steal." But all I have seen/heard is that Harris had the green light, it was up to him when to steal. That is nice and all, but if its not working, should not the manager take it into his own hands and force the player to steal? The entire scenario makes no sense, and often I wonder why some players get no leash, where as others seem to be infinitly forgiveable. SB

No one better say Harris is worse than Clayton. That just is a line I dont think we can cross. Losmedia, I have no problem trading Harris once Iguchi plays a few ST games and we see what we have. Just trading before Iguchi even swings a bat seems like invading Russia in the winter. SB

Jimh, You can look at the Iguchi signing in a completely different perspective: Last year many compared Iguchi with Kaz Matsui, The Sox were able to get Iguchi at a fraction of the cost of Matsui. They have already shown that they want to break into the Japanese marketplace, and Japanese fans have shown a desire to watch MLB. If you visit Tokyo, along with Japanese high lights, they dedicate segments to Ichiro, Matusi, Shingo, etc. For $2mil a year, the White Sox were able to take another stab into what potentially could be one of the biggest marketplaces for MLB. You are talking millions of people who potentially may be interested in Iguchi and Shingo White Sox paraphanelia. Many companys pay way more than $2mil to try and break into a market, I bet there are US companys who have paid upwards of $100s of millions to get into the Japanese marketplace. The White Sox have been able to do it signing Shingo and Iguchi, for less than $10mil between them. Not a bad investment even if you do not look at the baseball aspect. Not to mention that Iguchi is supposed to be oustanding, so the White Sox could potentially be looking at a great player and getting to sign him for relatively cheap because he is unknown. Also there was no one else out on the market who could potentially put up the production of Iguchi at 2mil. I mean had there been a 2mil SS or 3b, we may very well of signed them. Just happened that the best player being posted by Japan was a 2b. Steff, I cant comment on what I do not know. I just do not believe the media or the press in regards to pretty much anything. You probably have more knowledge on the subject than I, and I never have doubted that there is not something personally wrong with Harris that is preventing him from being on the Sox. But as an objective fan I can only look at the stats and what I have seen with my own eyes. SB

Jimh, I guess im in the minority of people who think that perhaps Ozzie should share in some of the blame. Ozzie was the manager, he could of just forced Harris to steal more... He could of put Harris in positions to succeed instead of positions to fail, and so on and so forth. Managers should critique their players, but usually the most good is done behind closed doors, and not to the public. When you do it in public it hurts the players value, as well as their self-esteem becaues they feel that the coach does not care enough about them to talk to them 1 on 1. Ozzie may think Harris is the worst player ever, but while Harris is on the White Sox, Ozzie's only concern should be: "How do I get the most out of Harris so that we can win games." SB

Steff, I do not doubt there are plenty of people that dislike Harris. The problem though is that do you judge a person on whether certain people can get along with him or not? Teams said Everrett was a bad seed, and other teams said he was not. That is the problem when you are relying on what people percieve and what they think of a person, many different factors are taken into account and you can not really judge objectively who is in the right. Maybe Harris got off to a bad start in Baltimore over something personal, we do not know. I mean there have been days where Ive just not been in a good mood, been a dick, etc, and people have not liked me for the rest of my life over that. There are other people who have seen that same behavior and thought nothing of it. The White Sox should be in the business of winning baseball games, and unless they can find a suitable back up for 2b, Harris should not be traded. If they trade Harris over personal vendettas etc, it will lead to problems. There is just far to much risk in Iguchi. Atleast for my taste, and if we seriosly want to be contenders. SB

Santo, No clue, I have no idea who the people are that tab the stats so it could just be that ESPN or MLB are off. Also, Pods actually became more of a ground ball hitter last year, despite what the press keeps saying. 2003: 204 148 1.38 2004: 243 167 1.46 I doubt that you see much of a change, its already pretty high. Harris is just an extreme ground ball hitter, thats why I thought it was amusing when some one said he popped up to much. SB

Jimh, If the manager says Willie is not performing, and that same manager performed exactly the same way, you have to wonder if it is personal, as opposed to real criticism. ::shrugs:: I also specifically state in my post, I would be relying on hearsay, therefore instead of getting into a hearsay argument, I would rely on facts. SB

Steff, Okay I was told by some one who knows Walker... Which would make sense as Ozzie is the most vocal hater of Harris, so I would suspect all in his camp dislike Harris. Where as Walker was pre-Guillen. SB

Santo, From espn, Mine include hits as well as outs. I believe yours only include outs. I will provide links if you can not find it yourself. SB

This is what I can not stand. If your going to rest your argument on Willie is not a good "person", "team player", "ego maniac", etc, that is one thing. But then in another post to start saying its because he did not perform, that is when you have to start relying on facts. So far no one has even touched on the fact that Willie's production was almost exactly the same as Ozzies. Lets look at another Ex-Sox coach: Heres Joeys, first full season: 153 579 95 155 15 13 2 51 20 8 67 63 .268 .351 .349 202 Note how once again, sb's around 20, average around .270, and so on and so forth. SB

Steff, Here is my question: Did you get this information from Kenny, Ozzie, or Jerry, or from an intermediary source. Because if it is not personal knowledge, than it is hearsay. There is a reason why hearsay is not considered reliable, and that is because you can not cross exam the one who has personal knowledge. It is not that I do not believe you, it is just I have been told by some one with personal knowledge that they were very suprised when I said the Sox were upset with Willie, and were going to trade him. They also said that they really liked Willie. Thus instead of relying on, what I do not personally know, I am referring to stats that every White Sox fan can get. Ozzie seems to be unreasonably hard on Harris. Ozzies production his first few years, is comparable to Harris's, and Im pretty sure if Ozzie had been benched he would of spoke up, and not taken it well. Daa84, 156 85 1.84 Thats ground balls, fly balls, gb/fb ratio. Now look at Pods, our new lead off hitter: 243 167 1.46 Get used to watching more pop ups, because Harris is as big of a ground ball hitter as they come. SB

Jabroni, Your name speaks for itself. Name a time, day, or game where Harris did not accept his role? Name a game where you saw him not run out a pop up, or give an all out performance at a position? All I saw from Willie last year was a guy that was willing to do anything for the team, regardless of what he was asked. Not many players can go from 2b, to CF. Not many players would even entertain that thought. Willie did it, and he gave it his best. Maybe hes not the best player, but prove to me that he Harris has not accepted his role. Or do you mean the fact that Harris does not accept that he can not win the starting position? Because I would want my players to always want to be the starter and work for that position. Once again, hearsay and conjecture. What we have here is summary judgement. SB

This is just great. In the 2 years or so I have been posting on this board I have never seen a player become so hated over conjecture and hearsay as Willie Harris. There is not one of you who would appreciate being told: "Hey your going to be doing this job" And then for 2 years straight have it taken away from you for whatever reason your boss could come up with that day. The fact that Harris still is willing to play and to try and win a starting job should dismiss any of the fabrications that you hear, but then again the human mind is so simple. If you repeat simple phrases enough, people will start to believe them. I guess its easier for people to say: Harris has a bad ego. Than to say: Well if you look at Harris's stats, its puzzeling why Ozzie is so down on him. It took Ozzie 2 full seasons to have 20 sbs, yet Willie had 19 in his first. Willie also had a much better OBP than Ozzie, and a slightly lower BA. I guess the saying goes; Does as I say, not as I do. Because if we were this hard on every young player the White Sox have ever had, we wouldnt have any left. But then again, I guess all of you did your job perfect from day 1 and never needed to learn anything. SB

Harris's comments have done nothing to hurt his trade value. Here is what hurts his trade value: Multiple times other people were traded for to replace him. Sox expect player that has never had 1 ab in MLB to already eclipse Harris's totals. Harris is completely disrespected by the White Sox. Harris is seen as so unvaluable that even after watching Kaz Matsui, the White Sox are going to be willing to enter 2005 with out a realistic 2b replacement. SB

Its strange how different people can read the same article and come up with a different interpretation. To me it seems all Willie wants is a chance to win the starting position. He never says, "I should be the starter" He only says "I want a chance to compete" If that is whining, then once again I have forgotten what the term means. He states facts about how is ab's were sporadic and that is not a very good thing if you want some one to do a consistent job. Perhaps some players can do it, but there is a reason why even good pinch hitters generally have a low ba. Also, every one is just posting conjecture on what the White Sox staff thinks. From what I have been told, Greg Walker has no problem with Harris. ::shrugs:: I just love how everyone has shipped Harris for a product most have never even seen for 1 minute. What happens if Iguchi sucks and Harris turns the corner this year? We threw away Harris just because, Ozzie does not like him. By the way: G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG TB Guillen first year: 150 491 71 134 21 9 1 33 7 4 12 36 .273 .291 .358 176 Harris first year: 129 409 68 107 15 2 2 27 19 7 51 79 .262 .343 .323 132 Guess the Sox should of just thrown Guillen away because his OBP was under .300, he had under 10 steals, and so on and so forth. He sucks burn him, give rookies no chance to develop at the majors! Lol SB

Actually Illinois has a much better regular season record than I thought. Just most of their losses came to Big 10 opponents. Also Wisconsin only won back to back, and one was a tie with Illinois. Not that many Mens basketball sights with archives, but Purdue actually does have the standings. So I will admit that Illinois has a better basketball program. SB