Marty34

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 01:48 PM) Sorry if you're insulted, really. I just don't know what kind of miracle rebuild you're expecting, or that any reasonable person would expect. I have no idea if it will work out, but the accolades Hahn has received are largely, precisely for the brevity of the rebuild plan. Apology accepted. As far as the plan goes, they can't afford to waste Chris Sale tremendous value (performance + contract). There should be more of a sense of urgency because possible health issues and with the money they had coming off the books they should have added another piece to that rotation even if it wasn't a perfect fit or cost them a draft pick. Try to cobble together a playoff team anyway you can while you have him that way his value can be maxed in a short series.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 01:28 PM) We don't reach the 1 year mark of the rebuild until July. It may be complete in 10 months from now. Sale is here for the next six years. Do you even think about what you write? I don't appreciate your continued insults. You are correct that Sale is signed for the next six years, I was not arguing that..

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 12:27 PM) This MAY be true, but obviously they didn't like the available guys THIS year, and the need, if it materializes, is most likely 1 SP, unless Coop has suddenly lost it, which I doubt. Nor would any of the available guys, THIS year, been difference makers, so the money spent on them in 2014 is pissed away, all with the HOPE that they'll bring back more in trade and you're not stuck with another Dunn-like mini albatross. AND, if you're somehow right and we need 2, we're better off getting them in the same offseason. But something tells me this ground has already been covered. The timeline for this rebuild should be much shorter than what a lot of people think. It's about maximizing the value of Chris Sale, they either have to put together a group to win with him or deal him while he remains one of the most coveted assets in MLB. Props directed toward Hahn for protecting a second round pick in this instance is missing the point entirely.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:49 AM) Now, we're arguing semantics of what can be included in definition of "core". Oy. Cubs and Sox are taking different approaches, based upon meathook realities for both sides. The reason we didn't augment our trade acquisitions with FA's are numerous. 1. First and foremost: They weren't smitten with any of the available QO FA's - they were far from alone here. Hard to say how serious we went after McCann. 2. Our payroll is likely much lower heading into next season, when better FA's are available. 3. They have so many holes, and it's unclear which of them will actually need filling, but we should have a much better idea before long. We may or may not need a SP, we may or may not need an OF, for instance. We'll definitely need some lefty/SH bats - Headley, Rasmus, Morales, for starters, will most likely be available, and it would be nice if our eventual C acquisition is one as well. If they want to win with Sale they are going to have to add a couple of SP. In my view, they should have gotten one of those this year, deal Quintana next offseason and add another FA starter. Other routes will take too long and just devalue Sale over time.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:43 AM) Of course it doesn't make sense when you pretend to not know what words mean, because it blows up your argument. Keep digging that hole. Why again are draft picks so valuable?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:26 AM) You don't read so well, do you? You don't make sense very well. On the one hand you are protective of draft picks on the other, players selected with these oh so valuable picks should not be considered part of a team's core.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:15 AM) Fine, take out Abreu. Are you telling me you would take Rizzo and Castro over Sale and Quintana? LOL. This is like calling a Presidential election based on who won Vermont.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:14 AM) You really can't comprehend the difference between prospects and core? Or just refuse to do so? You don't like draft picks now.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:01 AM) You can't call it a "core" when none of them have playing a pitch of major league baseball. Then what is so valuable about these draft picks you are so protective of.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 11:01 AM) Now, Mr. Patience prefers a 5 year rebuild that he knows our fan base won't tolerate. You're all over the map, dude. He's all yours. I did not say I preferred it, I'm saying the White Sox are approaching this rebuild as they have approached many things under this ownership, half-assed. First they say they want major league ready prospects, then they say they say we are not going to sign a free agent that costs a draft pick. This particular two-pronged approach is set up for failure if the goal is to be a championship team in my opinion.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 10:48 AM) Yep, all those draft picks that are worthless to a large market team like the Cubs. Really, guys, why do you continue to bother? When he's completely owned, he'll just change the topic, he won't acknowledge logic, and clearly doesn't read your response posts. Every once in awhile he has a cogent thought, which is why I don't put him, or anyone, on ignore. Most of the time he's either dense, a troll, or a dense troll. Please, please don't take the bait, and we can have better threads. The point of targeting the prospects the Sox did was to not have to go through a five-year rebuild like the Cubs and the Cubs have a better core because of it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 10:36 AM) The White Sox have Chris Sale, Jose Abreu and Jose Quintana at their core. The Cubs have Anthony Rizzo and Stalin Castro. You tell me. Cubs.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 09:23 AM) They tried to address it. There really wasn't a good solution. Has the 2014 marketing slogan been selected yet?

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 09:33 AM) It will of course depend on how these young guys play this year, but I can tell you the ETA is a LOT closer than the models that the Cubs, Astros, Marlins, etc. have been employing. I mean look at the Cubs: they're on year three and we're arguably just as far along in year one. We have less ammo in the lower minors, but there's no reason to believe we won't continue to acquire it via the draft and international market this season and next. You like the Sox core better than the Cubs core?

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 22, 2014 -> 09:30 AM) Hype machine? I've been a sox for over 40 years and the value of youthful talent has always been there and even more valuable now with players costing so much money. The Sox are trying to do what the Cardinals have been doing and that's drafting , scoutng and player development. This is how you maintain success on the fly, by having talent ready for a call up when a player goes down to injury or lose a player to FA. A team can always fall back on free agents to plug a few holes there may be but for the most part the farm keeps the mlb team fed with talent. Everyone knows the sox have not done a good job in scouting, drafting and player development and that's what Hahn is changing and its a great time to take advantage of high draft picks in the best draft the last 3-5 years, at least that's what is being said. So I ask the question once again. You wanted more not ready mlb talent for the minors so how do the Sox do that if they give away draft picks by signing free agents that won't make this team a contender? I'll also ask just one more time, besides Sale, who could the have traded to get the talent you complain about the Sox lack in? The fact you didn't answer those questions shows just how pessimistic you really are. Complaining for the sake of complaining, how sad. Why is dealing Sale not a good option? He is one of the most valuable assets in MLB and his shelf life is an ongoing concern. Going through a rebuild with him is a very risky strategy. Put the best team around him and try to make the playoffs every year you have him because Sale in a short series is an advantage few teams can match.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 11:10 PM) You bolded the line in my quote that is the answer. They can buy young prospects, they cannot buy MLB breakout candidates. They got the guys they wanted. No one, anywhere, at all think the Sox lost any of the trades they made. Try to find one. Winning the trades isn't enough. Did they assemble the core of the next championship team by virtue of these trades. That was the fall back plan in keeping the team together last year. By trading Peavy, Rios, Floyd, etc... they would be able to quickly rebuild. I don't Leury Garcia is what they had in mind for Rios, but maybe the rest of the guys they got will make up for him. What is the ETA of this rebuild?

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 10:54 PM) Well Mr. Pessimism. The third pick in each round is a great way to infuse good young talent into the farm and this is possible because they did NOT waste money on free agents that would cost them picks. Ironic you complain about the Sox not acquiring younger talent for the farm yet you were wiling to give away draft picks for free agents that would not have made the team a contender in the first place. Outside of Sale what the hell have the Sox had that would net a teams best young prospects? Certainly not Peavy, Rios, Reed or Santiago so tell me how YOU would have made this happen. Give me some realistic trades the Sox could have made to get younger prospects that weren't major league ready talent, then try to explain how you wouldn't be b****ing now about how the sox should have traded for major league ready talent. What I'm saying is you would be complaining no matter what, hence why I say you're pessimistic. Nothing pleases you. Nice try, I only pay attention to the usual stats that have been around for decades. I know squat about fangraphs,sabermetrics etc so try that somewhere else. I'm not saying those aren't useful, just never bothered is all. You're buying into the hype machine that MLB has started to create. An MLB draft pick isn't worthless, but it damn near is to a franchise that pulls in the revenue the Sox do. It is a great cover to give a fan base for not to spending money in free agency. There's something incongruous to targeting prospects in trades that are well past the midpoint in their development while in the same breath talking up the value of keeping draft picks.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 07:19 PM) ^^ Wow, just, wow! Another thread absolutely destroyed. I'm calling the NSA and letting them know there are terrorists among us that are using Weapons of Moronic Destruction to destroy threads here at SoxTalk. I need to quote fangraphs more.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 09:51 PM) It's about infusing talent at all levels. They increased international spending for the super young, they are drafting smarter (and higher =\ ) than ever before for the 18 to 22 year olds, and they are making trades to acquire controllable ML pieces. If that were the case why did they specifically target Major League ready prospects. The point of taking a lesser prospect because they are closer to the majors is to shorten the rebuilding process. If they were going to cut ~$35M in payroll they should have just targeted the best prospects period.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 04:58 PM) But they have also supplemented the major league ready talent with younger upside talent in the minors. If all these guys fail, we have other options that will be presenting themselves internally. We are going to get another pretty decent pitched in this draft along with who knows what else. In addition to that, payroll flexibility is a huge X-factor in being able to fill in the gaps when the team is competitive enough to warrant such a thing. There is no award for being mediocre in baseball. If the Sox are not a legit threat to win the division, its OK to have a bumpy season as it allows the team to improve that much quicker in the draft. Washington is a good example, they had back to back #1 picks to add to their core player of Zimmerman than went out and supplemented the roster through trades and free agency to become a really solid team. The Sox tried to spend money, they targeted McCann and Tanaka as potential difference makers and pursued them, but there is no reason to throw money around if there is not someone worth it, save that money to make a run at Headley next season. Which is why limiting the prospect options to Major League ready ones made me cringe. I disagree that we have players after this group that will be options. If these guys fail, Sale has to go on the market. Off season of 2015 will they be good enough to keep Sale?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 04:15 PM) The value of what they project to be and their talent level is sufficient. All prospects can flame out Marty. What would you have preferred they do, keep the same team that lost 99 games another year? I cringed when I heard they were targeting "major league ready" prospects, but I thought that they were going to augment that by spending in free-agency. I didn't understand limiting the prospect pool to trade for and not spending money.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 04:07 PM) Eaton, Abreu, Davidson, L. Garcia and Avi are waving hello. Go ahead and wave back, its OK. We'll see if that was a good return for Peavy, Santiago, Rios, and Reed. I know, but fangraphs says so.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:25 PM) It's interesting the Sox are getting raves for their offseason and definitely better than the alternative, but keep in mind, Toronto won the offseason last year. These guys still have to play when it counts. I believe if there was a post in September of last year that predicted Dunn, Konerko, Keppinger on the roster with Flowers and Paulino as starters and the Sox payroll at ~$85M this board would be up in arms.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 03:33 PM) The Blue Jays did have a really good offseason last year, but they also happen to play in the toughest division in baseball. I just don't understand the need to nitpick and point out the downside of this. Yes, guys can fail and yes, the rebuild isn't complete. These are things people from Hahn to the beer vendor to you and I all know. The Sox still did a lot of really good things between July 1st of 2013 and now. How do we know that. Fangraphs slapped a few articles up, I guess.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Mar 21, 2014 -> 02:50 PM) On the other side, Hahn has take a lot of risk out of his acquisitions by acquiring guys that are major league ready as they have at least ML level floors. He took a lot of risk out of it at the expense of reward. This is the core, there isn't going to be a lot of developing with these guys, and as such more should have been done to fill in the talent around it.