Marty34

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 07:12 PM) Honestly it is comical that some seem to believe that the organization operates with no influence from its customer base. As if the team functions in a vacuum. Is it not ownership's responsibility to grow the customer base.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 06:47 PM) His response is the exact reason that the White Sox organization could never do a Theo Epstein style rebuild. Sox fans never let go of stuff. Ever. Kenny Williams will be dead and buried, and that quote will still come up. The fans are the ones who determined how Rick Hahn rebuilt this team, right or wrong. If they had gone the Epstein way, we'd be looking at gates of 8000 people again. The White Flag trade happened July 31, 1997. That is 17 damned years ago. There are Soxtalk posters who weren't even born when that happened. Yet anytime the deadline comes up, White Flag gets mentioned. And it has influence on how the organization does its business because they know their customer base is fickle and b****y. Really, the Sox fan base should be grateful for the job the Reinsdorf ownership group has done.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 02:07 PM) The only hole I see is catcher. You CAN make the argument for Paulinos spot in the rotation, but the fact of the matter is we just don't know yet whether or not he is indeed a hole or not. I said it many a times Paulino had one real bad start the last 2 years he was healthy and sans that game he had a 3.40 era stretched across 157 innings. The guy has a ton of upside if he stays healthy.....With all the question marks, not holes, but question marks on the bats of the youngsters we have, I'd much rather take a cheap risk on him than take a risk on a guy who could end up being no better than the guys we have eternally This is certainly a team that can start competing as early as next year with staying power. Semien and Micah Johnson look like they will be joining the core very soon. Those 2 along with Eaton/Garcia/Abreu/Davidson all look like they could be apart of a real good young core. If they keep Dayan around to DH him you have 7 of your 9 starters set for the foreseeable future. They don't need tradable assets if all those guys play like we hope and the Sox are players in FA. It's unlikely that all of these prospects turn out well, that said aside from catcher and probably another LH hitter somewhere I'm willing to roll dice on the position players. I think it's still debatable whether Quintana is a #2 or #3 on a playoff team with the contract he signed though it doesn't matter because if nothing else that boosted his trade value. If Quintana settles in as a #3, he may be able to be packaged with a Beck or Bassit for an established #2 with Johnson hopefully sliding in at #3.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 24, 2014 -> 09:02 AM) It isn't the same thing at all. Just by simple finance a $130 million bust hurts the deep much more deeply, and probably longer, than a $68 million bust. I guess you mean hurts the ability to compete more than a $68M bust? My answer to that is it depends on the owner. Sox ownership has cried poor for 30 years and blamed fans for not being "able to spend $1 because we only have $.50"

QUOTE (scs787 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 11:38 PM) I think they're about where I expected them to be. I expected an improvement at the catchers position but past that everything I wanted them to do they did. I thought a table setter and a middle of the line up bat would be the 2 most important acquisitions of the off season and they got that. I've been somewhat of a Dunn supporter for the last 2 years, I think his bat has it's place in the lineup. We saw 2 years ago that the Sox can indeed compete with him in the lineup. Injuries bit both he and PK down the stretch and it really killed them. If 1 or both stayed healthy they more than likely make the playoffs.....The closer we get to the trade deadline the more value he gets. A few years ago Mark Reynolds got the DBacks a guy who has saved a few games for em. They won't fix all of the rotation internally, but I don't see them signing mid tier guys for big money who might end up being on par with what they already have internally. Much like this season when they went after Tanaka I can certainly see them going after a top guy next year. Only way I see them trading Sale is if Garcia/Eaton/Abreu/Davidson all prove to be busts which would make them much further away than I thought. If you would have told me we'd still have the holes we have and an $85m payroll at the beginning of the offseason I would have been surprised. This can't be a rebuild that sets up a 5 or 6 year run built from the minors if they keep Sale. We're not even at year 1 of the rebuild and we have few tradeable assets left. If they signed a mid-tier starter that would at least give them the flexibility to deal a Quintana or Johnson.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 08:51 PM) To me, they were trying to be serious players in FA. Again, if reports are true they tried to get the top catcher on the market, arguably the top pitcher on the market, and they landed a guy who very well could end up being the best bat on the market. I imagine next year they will once again be players for the top tier FAs yet again, esp. considering they'll have 15m+ coming off the payroll. There's a good chance Beck emerges next year, we're not talking a 2-3 year wait here. I, personally, am really intrigued/excited by the direction they're heading. It was never gonna be a 1 year rebuild, a team as bad as they were last year is not gonna turn it around by signing mid tier guys like Santana. Just because they targeted major league ready prospects doesn't mean they have to go for it right now, that's being a bit short sighted. As is thinking we should trade Sale if they don't plan on competing this year . I thought we'd be further along quite honestly. It all came to a halt after the Davidson trade. If nothing else I figured they would've rid themselves of Dunn by now. It's frustrating at how long it takes this organization to fix fixable problems. Eat the money and give those AB's to someone who may have a future.o I think it's going to be difficult to put together the rotation quickly enough internally to maximize Sale's value. Maybe Beck and Bassit can be used to trade for an established starter. I think they'll have to make a decision to keep or deal Sale by offseason of 2015.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 08:56 PM) And the NBA has what to do with baseball? Oh that's right, nothing! Nobody here needs me to rush to their defense. I just don't see eye to eye with you on , well, anything really. You change topics left and right in an effort to run and hide from a topic of conversation that you've been proven to be wrong or shown that you're making no sense. Kind of funny how its always you against everyone else so is everyone else the problem or maybe, just maybe, could it be you? Always looking to play the oh woe is me victim. Sad. I don't run and hide. I said Andy Wilkins had a .350 obp last year and was jumped on. I often have multiple posters to respond to and with the nature of my disability I can't spit out several paragraph rebuttals just too tiring. I have to pick my spots. If that's 'woe is me' I make no apologies for it.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 08:34 PM) This just in. Baseball now has a luxury tax... Since 2003! Just saying in case someone here isn't aware. Good one Roostifer. Now compare the NBA and MLB caps. Rushing to others defense as often as you do, you're well on your way to becoming a minion.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 07:22 PM) What's your point? The point is whether it's a $68M bust or a $130M bust, it's the same thing: a talent evaluation problem.

Loading up a reliever with saves to boost his trade value doesn't work anymore. If a reliever pitches well in a set up role that's enough.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 08:10 PM) Yeah, bringing up your player track record hits too close to home. Oh yes, I am so insecure about being wrong in my baseball thoughts. I hope my minions post in my defense.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 08:02 PM) $90 million Hamilton $17 million Grienke $26 million Tanaka $20 million bid win + $22 million Santana $14 million McCann $18 million Just off of the top of my head, from some of Marty's greatest hits. You were on a better track with your revenue limitation laws.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 07:45 PM) There is no salary cap, but there are revenue limitations. Other than that massive fact, and your choices of players, your rebuild would be going flawlessly right about now. Why are there revenue limitations? Is there a law I'm not aware of?

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 07:43 PM) You seem to believe we can sustain a $220M payroll with our current revenue streams. Just admit this and we can all save a lot of time here. How did you get that $220M payroll.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 07:16 PM) Wouldn't signing Santana after missing out on Tanaka be taking half-measures? I know you'll say he's better than Paulino, but he does offer an intriguing upside if Coop can get him to harness his stuff. It's entirely possibly that Coop thinks Paulino could be better than Santana. If that's the case it makes sense to see what you have in him while also seeing how guys like Beck and Bassit develop. Probably. I just don't see how they are going to get from where they are now to a championship with Chris Sale if they are not serious players in the free agent market going forward. Waiting on Beck and Bassit only devalues Sale. If they are fortunate with the draft this year that could fill a rotation hole, but I still think they're going to have to spend big on a couple free agents and their history shows they likely aren't going to do that.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 07:32 PM) Mike Cameron? Forgot about him, good comparison in power/speed.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 07:39 PM) It is signing Carlos Boozer after missing out on Lebron. Not only is it a half measure, it is a half measure that could cripple what the franchise wants to do in the future. There's no salary cap in MLB, but other than that small fact you are all over it.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:42 PM) Not sure why you think there's no difference. I would rather pay a bust like a league average player than I would pay him like a superstar. So would I, but he is still a bust.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:48 PM) The way I'm understanding him is it's either go for younger prospects and trade Sale or go for ML ready spects and drop big money. It's not a dreadful view on his part IMO, but the fact of the matter is they DID try to spend big on Tanaka and McCann, and they did spend big on Abreu...After missing out on those guys you can make the argument that the other guys were just not worth it. So now, I don't see any problem in waiting till next year, when they'll have even more money, to spend on actual impact players. This ownership has publicly tried for 30 years now, but they always come back to taking half-measures for the problems they have.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:40 PM) You don't seem to grasp the basic concept that the money available for payroll is not endless. Yes, Reinsdorf is rich, but he didn't get that way by signing huge checks for bad investments. One World Series title in 30 years, 15 postseason wins. By all accounts a great guy to work for though.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:37 PM) Becuase one leads to years of continued losing, the other leads to improving and eventually winning. Not really.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:25 PM) Right. Because Jose Abreu is 27 and they're paying him $10m/yr, which is very much not 32+ and $15-25m like I just said. What is the difference?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:31 PM) That is NOT what I asked. I asked what he would do if called up right now. You can't even answer the question spelled out 100% clearly because then you can't b**** about Dunn. And if his long-term ability is .350 OBP in the big leagues I'll acutally be seriously impressed. Because his OBP in A and AA ball is .349 and .353 overall; keeping up your A ball numbers is usually a big jump. .330 obp, right now today if he gets 300 AB's.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 06:26 PM) Marty. Seriously. Don't pretend like you think rebuilding is about the present and not the future. You prefer losing and not spending money to losing and spending money. I don't see the difference.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Mar 23, 2014 -> 04:49 PM) However, you did not address the actual given point, that Wilkins's OBP last year is made up of a .380 OBP at birmingham and .310 at Charlotte, and thus the .350 average is irrelevant. You ignored it. Instead, you responded with an ad hominem attack, changing the subject and attacking on an irrelevant issue because you will not say that you expect Wilkins to put up a higher than .312 OBP if he is brought up right now. Josh Phegley's average OPS between Chicago and Charlotte last year is .765. That should indicate that he was an above average contributor using the exact same standard you just used, so why aren't you up in arms about him being at Charlotte? There are many things currently with this organization to be up in arms with, I just haven't gotten around to Flowers/Phegley.