Marty34

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:56 PM) I've done the same. There's no harm in having Dunn on the roster - who is he legitimately holding back? De Aza? people want to string him up by his toenails too - so, if it's a sunk cost, and you can possibly recover some of that cost, you have a win. That is Finance 101. How? Do you understand what marginal value is? There could easily be a large hole that opens up on the roster (or one remains) and the Sox will then have no money to fill that hole. Would you rather have a rotation of Sale, Quintana, Johnson, Danks, and Paulino/Rienzo/Surkamp with Matt Wieters catching, or Sale, Quintana, Johnson, Danks, Jimenez with Phegley/Flowers/Nieto catching? Not over the next 4 years. B BTW, Weiters will be at the to of the market and the Sox do not play that game.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:23 PM) Is this a serious question? Say you're running a laundromat, and you have Seven washing machines. Five of them are usually sufficient to get the job done, but there are two of them that occasionally need maintenance so the other two, lesser quality ones are used. They get the job done, but not as well. You are spending $200 a day to run these and take home $400, and you continually make a profit of $200. Someone offers you the opportunity to bring in another washing machine that is just as good as the first five (though you, being a smart businessman, know it's not necessary because you only need five). This increases your daily costs to $350. You are still only bringing in $400, but now you've cut your profits to $50. Define.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:39 PM) What are you talking about? What market inefficiency? There's also the aspect of marginal value that you are, for whatever reason, not taking into consideration. Jimenez might be worth 4 more wins than Erik Johnson over the duration of his contract. Do you really want to spend $50-60 million for 4 wins over 4 years? I'm saying, literally, that instead of 77 this year, you'd win 78. Do you truly, honestly, 100% believe that's a smart business decision? If you do, then I'd like to sell you apples that are better than the ones you can get in the store (but only marginally so) for $10 a piece. If you think the Sox will be in a position to contend for a playoff spot over the next 4 years, Jimenez is an absolute steal.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 11:55 AM) He has no *trade* value at the moment because of his contract. He has plenty of value as a hitter, especially against right handed pitching. If he hits well in a platoon, the Sox could easily get someone to eat $2-5 million of his deal, which is $2-5 million the White Sox don't have to pay and will pay if they release him. It's also of note that the Sox likely are working with teams and willing to eat quite a bit of his salary to facilitate a trade, but outright releasing him isn't going to happen. You can argue it till you're blue in the face, but it's not going to happen, so you're ultimately wasting your time. This is a mistake by Hahn. The Ultimate Champion has put this argument to rest very eloquently. Dunn shouldn't be on the Opening Day roster.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:28 PM) Yes, because bringing in 30 year old pitchers at $15 mill a year over 4 years SCREAMS rebuilding. That's something all the teams that rebuild properly do. The White Sox are a rebuilding team with money. Isn't exploiting market inefficiencies what smart teams should do?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:23 PM) Is this a serious question? Absolutely, I want to know how the Sox rebuild effort is hurt if your best case scenario comes to fruition.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:12 PM) ? Where am I wrong? You're not wrong. It's bizarre that there are people who 1.) WANT to give this rotation a try, 2.) believe the addition of Jimenez or Santana kills the rebuild. Thirty years of Chairman Reinsdorf's ownership has conditioned Sox fans to think first about the payroll.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 02:12 PM) Because the value added of 3 wins for Jimenez for a 75 win team is negligible, if not outright harmful. The value added of 3 wins to an 89 win team may take them from first team out to last team in. This, of course, is all dependent upon what type of assets you have in those positions. The Sox happen to have 7 starting pitchers right now who they can use, and 5 of them could easily be as good as Jimenez next year. Even taking your best case scenario of having 5 pitchers as good as Jimenez, how does his addition hurt the Sox rebuild?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 3, 2014 -> 01:46 PM) You should ad "for a team coming off a 99 loss season" to that. If we were coming off an 89 win season, I could definitely see Jiminez being an investment teams would target for rotation depth Why 89 wins? The Sox have virtually no money locked up in long-term commitments. They can easily add money in the coming years. The smart thing to do would be to take advantage of the market on these guys (Jimenez or Santana) because it's highly unlikely their caliber of pitcher will be available at the discount they are going to go for.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Feb 1, 2014 -> 04:08 PM) It's so frustrating that you're acting like 5 people haven't spent a lot of time writing lengthy posts, directed specifically at you, about what he brings other than potential trade value and you're pretending like nothing has been said. Why would you want to build Dunn's value at the expense of one of their better trading chips De Aza or Viciedo? Penny wise and pound foolish.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Feb 1, 2014 -> 09:59 AM) I have always liked Rasmus. I was hoping that we actually got him back in 2011 when the Sox traded away E Jax. I do think he is the type of player Hahn will be targeting next offseason with Konerko and Dunn off the books. Viciedo appears to be the favorite as the new permanent DH going forward in 2015 and beyond. I will keep a close eye on Colby's #s this year for sure. Viciedo's too young to DH, besides he has not shown enough thus far to keep just for his offensive production. He needs to be the everyday LF'er at least until the All-Star break 2014 to get a better reading on what his worth is.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 10:09 PM) It is impossible that you have made it through this thread and so many others discussing the same topic without having read the many reasons for keeping him. I guess I'm astonished so many people here think they'll be able to get anything for him. Build up De Aza and Vicideo's trade value that's where the Sox will reap the biggest rewards, to hell with Dunn.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 09:51 PM) Just because you have money now doesn't mean it has to be spent now. That money could be used on Dunn's replacement after he's gone, or if Tank goes to DH it can be spent on a LH LF or a LH CF and move Eaton to LF or a catcher or any combo of these . All of those options better utilize the money than spending on pitchers that do not project good at the home run friendly Cell. You really think Jimenez' walks or Santana's HR's will project well at US Cellular? By no means is the joke on us. Colby Rasmus is going to have a lot of suitors next offseason and they'll be the biggest spenders. The Sox aren't going to win the bidding for him. As far as signing a pitcher goes, I think that rotation is a problem that needs to be addressed. A mid-rotation contract for Jimenez or Santana would be a wise investment at this point given their future payroll comittments.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 02:15 PM) Am I the only one that doesn't particularly care for these outdoor games? I haven't been to a game, but I would imagine the sightlines aren't as good as indoors. And I think camera angles are better indoors. It was fun the first time, but IMO the NHL is overdoing it. One was definitely enough. The broadcasts of these games have been really uncomfortable because the announcers way oversell the games. It's to the point where they want you to believe these outdoor games are a cure for cancer. The NHL is fantastic.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 06:13 PM) Marty, if we were to dump Dunn, what exactly would you do at DH next year? DH DeAza, Viciedo in left everyday.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 05:35 PM) You might think you're fending them off, but really they're just laughing at you. You're probably right and they are laughing at me. That doesn't mean the joke isn't on them.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 05:23 PM) The SABRmetricians are coming for you, Martyr34! They guaranteed that Dunn would be great and they vilified poor Ervin Santana, stating that he was never going to amount to anything and was not worth any price. It's the militant SABR bunch I worry about, ScottyDo. The others I can fend off.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 01:40 PM) Marty doesn't even read people's responses to him. He just says the same s*** every 3 pages. You're one of those SABR people who thinks the game is best played on paper. Get your head out of a book once in a while and watch the game.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 04:46 PM) This thread has hit an all time low. Dump Dunn , pay him to stay off the team to play for another... Sign an inconsistent SP to a multi- year deal... Yes, good idea, sign another player to another potentially bad contract so the people b****ing about Dunn have someone new to b**** about after Dunn is gone. Let's complain about how 1 more year of Dunn takes at-bats away from other players but let's sign a starting pitcher to a 4 year contract because he surely wouldn't take starts away from any of the quality pitching prospects the sox have that are ready now and the ones that could be ready in a year or two. Sounds like a short-bus merry-go-round of idiocracy. You belong to that SABR crowd, but you're not one of the militant ones so I'm sure you know any player you sign has the potential to be a bad contract. What made Dunn's contract so awful was the Sox farm system was than only thing worse than it, they were locked into him. With a lot of money to spend and presumably an improving farm system a mid-rotation starter is not even a drop in the bucket.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 03:45 PM) Agreed. They aren't making the playoffs with or without him, and no one's going to take that contract of our hands. Pencil him in, hope for the best, and STFU. Why suffer through another Dunn AB when you don't have to?

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 02:31 PM) Also, nobody is hating on Marty indiscriminately. We are hating on his arguments because they're bad and selectively blind to counterpoints. I don't know where this persecution complex is coming from but I have nothing against you OR Marty as people, I just find your arguments as flawed as you find the rest of ours. My argument is whatever we get back for Dunn isn't worth keeping him. you can believe in Santa Claus and think otherwise if you like.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 12:31 PM) He was 5th on the team in OBP and 2nd on the team in SLG, and there isn't one team in baseball that would pay $14M just to make such a person go away. Whats he going to do for the team beyond this year?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 12:23 PM) You guys are really bothering to engage Marty on this topic? He's decided that Dunn's very presence is more important to the fan base than how good the team is, or anything else for that matter. It is an absurd concept on its face. He's toying with you. Just like Paulino being in the rotation is good for the team?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 11:59 AM) No, the White Sox should do what's best for the White Sox. Not to say screw the fans, but they don't know s***. Why keep him?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 31, 2014 -> 08:34 AM) Who f***ing gives a s*** Coming off a 99-loss season it would behoove the Sox to throw their fans a bone. Why keep Dunn?