fathom

Contreras on the mound with Hall behind the plate.....I predict the Phillies steal 6 bases today.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 08:34 PM) Well, don't forget about Yovani Gallardo. Watch out for him in Milwaukee... I think....and hope....he meant in our minor league system.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 07:25 PM) Well. Our starters have always had the philosophy under Coop to pound the strike zone and attack the hitters. Its really a Mark Buehrle strategy that we have tried to instill in the rest of our rotation. As soon as they had Danks doing that in ST, he completely changed and matured as a pitcher. Gotcha....good point. I've actually thought a lot of Danks recent struggles lately have to due with his lack of throwing consistent strikes. I don't know if you've noticed this, but he seems to be coming off the mound to the right a little more than he had earlier in the year, and that's causing his ball to sail up and out to righties.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 07:21 PM) Dont speak too soon on Floyd. The guy has been coming on of late. Everyone thought he would be, even OOTP. Of course that was before Danks proved that he was way beyond where Texas thought he was in terms of dev, in fact our organizational philosophy towards SP's changed his approach and made him a very good SP for us. What are you talking about? (and I don't mean this negatively, I'm interested in what philosophy you're referring to).

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 07:18 PM) Floyd has actually pitched very well recently. Let's not write the guy off as a bust just yet. The kid is all of a whopping 24 years old right now. Yes, he has been pitching better. However, I have it on very good authority that KW thought Gavin Floyd would be our 5th starter this season.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 07:07 PM) Could you? Why would you assume that Kenny Williams turned down better players in a trade than what he got back from Philly? The guy was, and is, hurt. The whole Sox fan base knew that a starter was getting dealt this fall, and they found someone stupid enough to take Garcia without giving him a physical, while receiving a couple of good prospects in return. Because KW got fixated on Gavin Floyd, and thought Coop could fix him. Also, how do you know that KW would have gone ahead and made a trade that would help for the future....but it meant getting rid of someone like Dye? You accuse us of making a lot of presumptions, but how do you know that maybe KW and Ozzie think that this team can still compete for the playoffs?

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 06:35 PM) Well lets think about this: If we can swing for another just about ready for the bigs SP like Danks/Gio. We could swing some of that saved cash, deal one of our other starters and big an even bigger splash this upcoming offseason. If we could keep Buehrle, insert either Gio or another young guy into the rotation and take some of Dye, Gooch, etc's sal to land maybe Ichiro or something like that, we keep fans, get younger and move forward. That's exactly the point. The rumors of Dye for Billingsley got my ticker racing. He'd be the perfect guy to bring in. I don't see how we can bring back Dye for the next two to three years of the new contract he'll get.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 06:29 PM) It is kind of hard to sell panic when you have won 99 and 90 games in back to back years to go along with a world series trophy. People wanted to be a part of the winning. It is much easier to sell panic when your bullpen is a disaster, the team is hitting in the .230's, and you are in 4th place. People will eat this up now. If KW was so worried about the bandwagon fans jumping off the ship if they struggled during 2007, then he should have received major league-ready players in the Garcia trade. It would make no sense to stop the semi-rebuilding process that started last offseason just because you're scared of losing some bandwagon fans. The real easy solution to keep these fans would be for Reinsdorf to open up the wallet and spend a ton of money to re-sign Buehrle, bring in Ichiro, etc., this offseason. Then, you can not only make the Dye trade for prospects, but you can have a team ready to compete for 2008 also. I think we just disagree but in my view, this 2007 team isn't good and isn't a playoff contender.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 06:23 PM) But the writers won't look at it that way, because that doesn't sell newspapers. They will focus on the millions of dollars that will be saved by trading him. You can bet on it. I honestly don't believe that KW is worried about what the press will say about his transaction. If he did worry, then he would have never said the bulls*** he said about the market last offseason and how he was whining that he'd never re-sign another Sox starting pitcher. In reality, that should have had a much more negative impact on our fan base and perception than any move made for an aging veteran who has fewer hits over the last few weeks than deaths on the Sopranos.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 06:22 PM) We also won 90 games last year with virtually the same talent as this year. I think THIS year is the outlier Yep, the 2005 and 2006 team were World Series caliber teams. This year, it's just not. That's fine though....as many have pointed out, most teams would do anything for two straight 90 win seasons. Admitting that this team just lacks "it" this season doesn't diminish what KW and Ozzie and company achieved the last few years. We've been destroyed by the injury bug this year....and that's after seemingly a 5 year span where we had fewer injuries than anyone (besides Frank).

What annoys me about that article is that trading Dye wouldn't be to save money. It would be to get some valuable players back that could help this team over the next 5 years. No one appreciates the impact Dye's had with this franchise more than I have....but if you can get good value for him right now, you have to move him.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 06:16 PM) The entire offense seemed to get hot right when it needed to that year. I recall the drubbing the Sox put on Vazquez that year when they had like a 10 run inning, capped off by a Thomas 3-run jack; that fueled the team until like the ASB. That was Vargas....Javy kicked our ass earlier in that series.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 05:04 PM) That's the fun part, Kenny is making a decesion by not putting the farm up for sale after the first week of not having any rain. He understands that you can't portray panic to your fanbase and expect them to show up anymore. Kenny Williams gets it. The trade deadline is approaching rather quickly. How much longer can we keep holding on to the injury excuse or the fact we play a lot of games against below .500 teams? I give this team two more weeks. If we continue to play bad and the Cubs come into our house and kick our ass, then KW has to start becoming a seller. It sucks, but it's the way baseball works. Jermaine Dye is more valuable to this team now as a trade chip than as a right fielder.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:59 PM) But even then in that little statement you just made, you are telling the fans you are quitting. A statement like that doesn't say we want to get better for 2008, it says that we are quitting and this one player deserves better than to stay here. That perception is very important, I cannot stress that enough. Well, if you can't make tough decisions like that, then you're in the wrong business. We already made one wrong decision by not trading Crede when he wouldn't get the back surgery during the offseason and we knew he wanted a huge money deal. This team needs young, exciting prospects a lot more than we do an aging veteran hitting .250 for the rest of this year with wheelchair-style defense.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:50 PM) There is plenty of sentiment that exsists that we have to trade people RIGHT NOW. It is posted here ad naseum. Yes, to trade Dye right now before his value decreases even more if his batting struggles continue and his knee injury lingers.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:46 PM) It may not matter. Like I said, from what I've heard, Rowand was there to be had in the Garcia trade but the White Sox did not make it happen. That could be partially because Williams felt Anderson would solidify himself as the starting center fielder and would have no need for Rowand. Or, it could because Williams just wasn't interested. He would make a lot of sense in 2008, but, that ship may have sailed. I think it's more possible now than ever.

QUOTE(AddisonStSox @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:42 PM) Do I want Rowand back because he was a fan favorite or a cult hero? Not necessarily, but it helps. I want Rowand back in 2008 because he is a big league f***ing centerfielder and will be had for much less than his fellow OF free agents. The only problem is that he's going to get more than he really should. If KW was intent on bringing him back next offseason no matter what (which I'm about 90 pct sure he was going to), it would be better off for us if Rowand cools off a lot.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:35 PM) See this is the unfortunate thing about White Sox fans and the way the White Sox are written about in this team. I cannot say this enough times. THE BASEBALL WRITERS IN CHICAGO ARE TERRIBLE. With the exception of a few decent articles by Phil Rogers here and there, Sox fans, in general, are NOT informed of the direction the organization is going. They are not informed of what really goes on with the payroll. They are not informed why certain trades have been made or may be made in the future. The average Sox fan gets his information from guys like Jay Marriotti and Dan Bernstein. And then we wonder why the organization has to put puppets like Chris Rongey on the radio. Someone has to fight the ignorance spewed by the writers informing our fanbase. The average fan has to understand the issues facing the organization. They have to know that Mark will like get a contract totalling $80-100 million this year. They have to know that while no prime free agents were added last year, contracts of players like Dye, Iguchi, Crede, Podsednik, etc., were escalating. They must know the truths about Jerry Reinsdorf and his committment to winning. Instead, they are lead to believe things pointed out by the Poster I quoted here. That Mark Buehrle won't be signed (probably because we're just cheap, not because his salary might account for 15% of the the entire payroll for the next six years). That no big name free agents were brought in because Jerry is pocketing the surplus money brought in by the increase in season ticket sales. White Sox fans need to be more inquisitive about what their team is really doing and where the organization is really going. They need to understand things like payroll, know their farm system, understand some other statistical methods of measuring production other than RBI's and wins and losses. Go to a Red Sox game, or even an Athletics game. These fans are very well-informed. It's the same way we all need to be. Dan Bernstein is a fantastic analyzer of the White Sox. When they're good, he'll say they're good. When he sucks, he'll say why they suck. He also has a lot of inside information about the team if you pay attention close enough.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 04:02 PM) We would have to get a HUGE deal, something along the lines of Danks and Massett for McCarthy, to do a deal now. That is what Kenny has to be looking for. It has to be a deal that he can take back to the public and be able to defend as something there was no way he could pass up. If he were just to deal everyone right now, that wouldn't happen, because if there were people offering value for our players, they would already be gone. You don't just deal to dump people, which is pretty much what is getting advocated. Trust me, I don't want a fire sale just to shake things up. Our minor league system is so bad that whoever we bring up the rest of this year, they'll surely suck. However, I want Dye to be traded for the fact he can still get you some value, but he's clearly on the downside of his career right now. All he has to say is that Dye had a great career with the Sox, he'll always value his loyalty, and he wanted to reward that loyalty by sending him to a team that is in first place, etc. I don't think there's a Sox fan out there who would be upset if we trade Dye.

Maybe it's me, but trading Dye to a contender would be a very respectful thing for KW to do. ss2k5.....so are you not supporting the idea of trading some of our players in the next 45 days?

David Aardsma allowing a two out, two run homer to prevent us from sweeping at Detroit.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) Kenny Williams can't be worried about the media? Then why should he be reigning in Ozzie Guillen when he says something stupid? Its because media perception matters in this town. Don't kid yourself, its obvious you have wanted this melted down for quite a while, but Kenny has to do things intelligently or we end up with a $50 million payroll for 2008 because of season ticket cancelations. He has to be able to give the perception that he did everything he could for 2007. With teams like Houston and Minnesota coming back from huge deficits in the last few years, there will be plenty of writers convincing people that they quit too soon if they were to do something today. Don't forget that White Sox fans are about the biggest bandwagon fans in all of baseball. They have to believe that we are just reloading for 2008, and not completely rebuilding because of the past perceptions that still linger in this town. There were people who didn't go to games for a decade because of grudges like the strike and the white flag trade. It will happen again if this gets done in a haphazard fashion. Sox only have good attendance for one reason: winning. I don't see how keeping guys that won't be on the team next year for the entire season will help our ticket sales for next year, etc. Let's face it....we have a ton of bandwagon fans. I love bandwagon fans in baseball more than any sport, because attendance dictates payroll in baseball more than any other sport. What are people going to perceive is happening when we lose Buehrle, Dye, and Iguchi this offseason and replace them with Rowand and a couple of middle-of-the-road players? The 2008 situation has been looming for a few years now, and I just hope KW is more focused on rebuilding this team for the next 5 years instead of trying to fool people that they have a legitimate chance in 2007 or 2008.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 03:32 PM) Kenny Williams can't be worried about the media? Then why should he be reigning in Ozzie Guillen when he says something stupid? Its because media perception matters in this town. Don't kid yourself, its obvious you have wanted this melted down for quite a while, but Kenny has to do things intelligently or we end up with a $50 million payroll for 2008 because of season ticket cancelations. He has to be able to give the perception that he did everything he could for 2007. With teams like Houston and Minnesota coming back from huge deficits in the last few years, there will be plenty of writers convincing people that they quit too soon if they were to do something today. Don't forget that White Sox fans are about the biggest bandwagon fans in all of baseball. They have to believe that we are just reloading for 2008, and not completely rebuilding because of the past perceptions that still linger in this town. There were people who didn't go to games for a decade because of grudges like the strike and the white flag trade. It will happen again if this gets done in a haphazard fashion. What have I wanted to melt down? And there's a big difference between the media criticizing someone for personnel moves as opposed to media criticizing a member of the organization for calling someone a f#g.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 03:11 PM) You don't think that the Chicago writers will spin the Sox trading two marque players into a White flag scenario? There is a group of writers that will torch the Sox as soon as any deal is done, especially if it is done this early. No, I think it's the writers who will bash him if he doesn't try and get something for guys who we have little shot at re-signing. KW can't be worried about the media though....they're going to complain about things no matter what. By that time, they'll be focused on the Cubs anyways. If the Sox can get some good value for Dye, then KW deserves a medal. Jermaine Dye had the most memorable first two seasons in a Sox jersey of anyone that's ever played for the organization....now, it's time to trade him before fans really start to dislike him and forget about what he's accomplished here.

The Chicago Knights