WilliamTell

Bobby Jenks

QUOTE(Jordan4life_2005 @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 04:03 PM) A superstar wouldn't have taken 1 shot in a 4th quarter as his team was choking away a 15 point lead in a game 7 against the Lakers in 2000. A superstar is a guy that can take over a game at any time, a guy that you want with the ball in his hands to get you a big bucket at the end of a game. There's a reason that Scottie is known as the "sidekick". Some take that as an insult. Hell, Kevin Mchale and James Worthy are two of the best "sidekicks" ever. That's the class I would put Pippen in. And as i'm sure you know, Mchale and Worthy are both hall of famers. The Bills Russell comment is not even worth responding to. First of all, don't try and put words into my mouth simply because you disagree with me. They're exactly 3 superstars in the game today. Shaq, Duncan and KG. And it's hard to say who's more valuable between Pip and AI because one guy was the sidekick to the greatest player ever, the other has been the go to guy for all of his career. Pippen obviously kills AI on defense. AI kills Pip on offense. You can't really compare who's more valuable. lol thank you for not mentioning the name Kobe. I'd say you nailed it with the top 3. LeBron will make it very soon, and who knows what Dwayne Wade will become when he doesn't have Shaq at all.

lol this is great.

Lieberman, my favorite Democrat.

lol we know who's last in the Big 12.

QUOTE(hammerhead johnson @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 01:50 PM) If you're the greatest defensive SF since the 60s and perhaps the greatest transition player of all time, you're without question a superstar. Next thing I know, you'll be saying that Bill Russell wasn't a superstar because he couldn't take over games on the offensive end. In today's game, you'd probably say that Allen Iverson is a superstar. Meanwhile, Pippen is/was so much more valuable than that dude that it isn't even funny. I agree that Allen Iverson is a superstar in today's NBA. But I don't know if Pippen was much more valuable than Iverson is. Iverson single handedly lead his team to the NBA Finals. Now he's taken over as the team's point guard aswell.

QUOTE(Punch and Judy Garland @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 03:05 PM) Good riddance to Carl Everett. They can have the jerk That jerk helped us win a World Series. I think he's really matured since and is a team player. I'd want him back if we still had an open DH spot.

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Anyways I have to head out. This thread was supposed to talk about the game and Scottie Pippen getting his jersey retired and I kind of took it off topic. Congrats to Scottie for that, it was well deserved. Goodnight all.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 01:04 AM) The years after the dynasty needs to be thrown out the window. Some of the worst teams ever put together. And luckily for the Bulls there was a lockout in the 98-99 season.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 12:43 AM) What counts in the end...wins and losses. Bulls 6, Jazz 0 Wins and losses do count in the end I guess. From 1990-2000 the Bulls had 520 wins, the Jazz had 542 but the Jazz never won the grand prize. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with the two men who showed millions how to play the game the right way. Don't need to be flashy, just execute perfectly. Stockton and Malone had huge hearts but that can only go so far. So what if they didn't win a championship, I'm still proud of them.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 12:33 AM) I consider it "beating the s*** outta someone" when you beat them over and over and over in "important" games like, oh, I dunno, the Finals. Yeah and 3 of the 4 games they won by 5 points or less. That's getting the s*** beat out of you alright.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 10, 2005 -> 12:00 AM) You were implying the teams were equal. Clearly was not the case. No I was implying that the Bulls didn't "knock the s***" out of the Jazz.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:57 PM) I could care less if the jazz swept them in the regular season as long as they won the ''important'' ones. And thank you for being redundant as I said that already.

QUOTE(SoCalSouthSider59 @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:54 PM) Bulls > :fthecubs Oh cmon now, the Bulls went 4-4 against the Jazz in the 97-98 season, they just won 4 of the 6 really important ones.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:47 PM) When you have one of the best teams organized ( talent wise) you are damn right they are gonna get some calls. That is why i do not b**** when the superstars of today get every call their way. Was just like that for the bulls for nearly a decade... the bulls have had their fair share of calls go their way. It's not like Malone, Stockton, and Hornacek were just average players either. But yes, just like in baseball, if you're have a reputation of greatness, you are going to get it your way and rightfully so I suppose.

QUOTE(SleepyWhiteSox @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:38 PM) So your argument is that he isn't a great because his numbers went down when he got older? That's almost every single great player... Off the top of my head I can only think of Jordan retiring on top. I said he declined a lot more than most great players do. Sure he wasn't like a Penny Hardaway but you could tell he significantly lost a step or two.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:38 PM) Being a Bulls fan I think about the times we beat the s*** out of the Jazz... lol I knew I was going to get some comments about that. Winning 4-2 each time isn't really beating the s*** out of them. Especially when there were very, very generous calls, but that's another story.

lol you guys are complaining about phantom calls? Being a Jazz fan I feel that's so sad I'm laughing.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:22 PM) Pippen guided the Jordan-less Bulls to the Eastern Conference Finals in 1994. f***, he was under serious consideration for MVP. If not for a phantom foul call in New York, it could have been possible the Bulls retained their crown. He'll always be remembered for being Jordans 'sidekick,' but those who know the game realize he was a quality player in his own regard. Pippen finished 3rd in voting with 7 first place votes. Hakeem Olajuwon won it with 66 first place votes followed by David Robinson with 24 first place votes. Not too shabby for Pippen.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:20 PM) Agreed and this is coming from someone that wasn't a huge Pippen fan. That said he's one of the greatest all time players (definately belongs on the 50 greatest list) and if the Bulls didn't have Jordan he'd have probably been the 3rd best player in the 90s (behind Stockton and Malone who would have been the greatest duo ever as far as I'm concerned). Pippen was a stud defensively (one of the all time best defenders), was good offensively (I thought he took too many 3's, but he made the big ones) and was a very good passer. Plus the man knew how to use the backboard. He should have been the MVP in 94 when the Bulls lost to the Knicks in 7 at the garden. Alright! A Stockton and Malone prop right there! I think there's one thing all of us can agree on. Chicago got a hell of a deal with the trade in getting Pippen for Polynice I want to say.

QUOTE(qwerty @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:08 PM) Stockon is considered to be the best pure point guard in nba history by many, many people. I'm glad to hear that, when I listen in on basketball talk shows I hear the names of Bob Cousy, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, and Gary Payton as the best. I rarely hear of John Stockton.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 11:02 PM) I didn't say it was based purely on defense. It's based on impact on the game. Pippen had a huge impact on the game. There's a reason why he was almost MVP in 2002 with Portland with only 11ppg. He was a leader and helped in so many aspects of the game. I used defense as an example and I honestly don't remember him almost being an MVP in 2002. You say it's a shame that he won't be considered one of the greats because he played behind Jordan. (And by the way I believe they both were very good players that complitmented each other as good as any in NBA history.) What is a shame are other players, notably John Stockton, who had nearly 20,000 points, the all-time leader in assists with nearly 16,000 and steals with over 3,000 steals doesn't get recognition about being apart of the all-time greats. There are just players that will be like that, Stockton is one of them, and so is Pippen.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 9, 2005 -> 10:54 PM) He was old already. Look at Gary Payton's career. And Gary Payton is definately a HOF PG. He was better than Kidd for much of his career. Stats don't tell the whole story. And complitmentary player? How do you explain '94 when he was within inches of winning the season MVP and when he won the All-Star game MVP? Pippen was an awesome player in the shadow of Jordan. It's sad that Pip will never get the full recognition he deserved because he was definately an al-time great. The guy could do soooo many things. I know stats don't tell everyting but greatness is mostly based on stats and championships. For example, if it was based on defense, Bruce Bowen would be one of the most popular players in the NBA.

idk, I just think he was more than a complimentary player, but not a superstar. And yes statistically when Jordan wasn't there averaging over 20 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 assists. That's very solid, but unlike some of the greats, when his career was ending, his ability statistically really took a hit.