elrockinMT

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 4, 2012 -> 08:01 PM) So you are saying KW purposely passed on significantly more value to make this particular trade? Because two "so-so minor league pitchers" is what KW got for Quentin as you said. If that isn't the true value of Quentin, then he must have passed on better trades right? That's what your saying? The reasons KW dealt Quentin are irrelevant to his value. He's worth what is right now because of his current abilities and expected production, not what players like Dunn & Rios are being paid. Your problem here has nothing to do with a lack of statistics, but simply not using basic logic to walk through the scenario. Quentin is worth very little due to his own doing and no one else's. Why is this so hard for you accept? Glad to hear you know what my problem is I don't believe I ever suggested what Dunn and Rios were making is what CQ should make. I also believe CQ has produced at a higher level than Rios and Dunn did especially in 2011. Yes, CQ is oft injured, but he was our second best RBI man last year. All I see is how we have all these sabermetrics to go by and that means I am supposed to accept our players are worthless and should be traded for low level minor leaguers. Ok, if you say so...

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 4, 2012 -> 07:10 PM) Great. So given the fact that the White Sox have severely underperformed for the past 3 years, when they've had a shot at the division all 3 years, and Carlos Quentin was on the team all 3 years, I judge that his intangibles were also hurting the team, and we're better off without him, using the logic of intangibles. So it was Carlos Quentin's fault? Maybe they competed because CQ was on the team? I think you might use the same argument to support Mark Buerhle being allowed to go, or maybe the trade of let's say PK? Bottom line is we were told if trades of players like CQ are made it will be for major league ready players. There are reports out there that these two are not really top prospects -0r at least not anymore. Maybe at one time, but not now. So if that is true then one must assume it was a salary dump to pay for Dunn, Peavy and Rios.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 4, 2012 -> 04:40 PM) This is BS. Let me ask you this: Do you try to at least READ any of the advanced statistics or advanced metrics and the monetary values they suggest for players? Because there is a large body of data that suggests that trading Quentin was the right thing to do, regardless of what our payroll would have been otherwise. Have you made an effort to learn any of these new performance valuation systems? These are not rhetorical questions, either. I honestly am asking this of you and Greg, or anyone else that would like to reply. If you think my stance is "BS" as you label it my response to you is it takes a BS'er to know one. Stats can mean anything you want them to mean and can be used in anyway you want them to be used in an exchange when wanting to justify your position. I personally think that some of the problems we have seen develop with this team over the years has a lot to do with the failure to consider the intangibles that certain players have brought to this team. Team chemistry-leadership-experience, but I bet there aren't any C.L.E. WAR's and BAR's for those. Let me ask you what the advanced metrics said about Dunn? Peavy, et al? You are obviously a stat man when making decisions. Me not so much. This kind of stuff kind of reminds me some of Robert Mcnamara and his youthful group of brains back in the 60's. In 5 to 10 years from now what wil be the flavor of the month?

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 4, 2012 -> 12:22 PM) I'm guessing most people you talked to have no perception of the value of a baseball player. With regards to the scouting community, Carlos Quentin has exactly 1 good tool, and that is his power. If he hits .280, he can be a legit MVP candidate. But, as is usually the case, he will hit anywhere between .230-.250, his power numbers will suffer as a result, and he'll put up an .850 OPS at best, which is good before you consider his mediocre arm, bad defense, and oft-injured nature. On top of that, he's going to make anywhere probably $7 or $8 mill this year and then he's a free agent, so he either gets really expensive or he gets really injured, and the Sox end up with nothing either way. I bet Viciedo has a better WAR than Quentin this year. I'm actually quite confident he will. **For clarification purposes, Quentin was and still will be a player I enjoy to watch hit, especially when he is going good. I'm also not crazy about the trade. At the end of the day, it's hard to complain about it because you can't ask for much more than two live arms considering the total value of Quentin. They could have tried to deal him midseason, but it's just as likely that he gets hurt for a period of time and you are lucky to get 1 of those arms for him. I think some of us do have an idea of the value of a baseball players and it isn't two so-so minor league pitchers for a player like CQ. The trade happened because the GM made some bad decisions and now needs to shed payroll by trading off the better players we have that will and were coring some salary money. We keep the mistakes, who are paid way to much, and continue to suffer. I understand you aren't crazy with the trade and I am certainly not. Reality though is it was done and it's over.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jan 4, 2012 -> 03:37 PM) Considering how rarely he walks, his average better be a lot higher than .255. Agreed

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jan 3, 2012 -> 06:00 PM) I want to be the first person to post that "the Tank is out of gas" when he hits his first slump. Nobody steal that, OK? How about the "Tank rolled off its treads."

We are counting a lot on Viciedo. No doubt he has talent, but the question is can he translate that into major league success. I am a bit hesitant to crown him as the hitting replacement for CQ, bit am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that his hand injury may have affected him in 2011.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 2, 2012 -> 05:52 PM) No, but we ought to understand that the White Sox are not going to eat $40 million. They're just not going to do it. And what you are saying is probably correct. And therin lies the problem... this team runs the risk of another Dunn melt down, another non-performing year from Rios and another injured Peavy year all because of bad decisions involving huge amounts of money and we will be suffering through another non-winning year. The hope is they turn it around.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 06:27 PM) Why do people think that teams are willing to give up quality, cheap, and major league ready prospects so easily? These are known as assets, and teams that have them generally would like to keep them unless they are blocked or are being traded for high end established veterans. Carlos Quentin doesn't warrant such a return. Well for one thing it's true that they don't have to when dealing with the Sox. Plus Carlos Quentin is a much bette ball player than folks here seem to want to give hm credit for

QUOTE (Reddy @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 09:41 PM) yes. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Even those of us that don't sgree with the other ones

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 10:51 PM) It was just an idle thought at the time But, you never know

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 10:51 PM) Trading for Teahen was fine. It was the extension that most everyone could see was insane. Maybe the trade was fine, but I never saw the need for it. But, that extension was crazy

QUOTE (Heads22 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 10:04 PM) I think the return is more than OK for Frasor, but it didn't make me any less frustrated that he was the prize for Edwin Jackson, who I thought should have been worth a more dynamic package than he and Stewart. I agree with your take on the E Jax deal. He could have brought more I think. It willl be interesting to see what develops with him. Maybe the Sox go after him as a free agent? He has a tone of talent, eats up innings, can throw a lot of pitches and is young. Maybe the price will be right?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 10:08 PM) Don't forget also clearing nearly $10 million on Teahen. Esp. if we happen to sign that Cuban guy. If we pursue Cespedes than I am ok with it. I had no problem with the Teahan deal, but it seemed to signal KW's moves to try and somehow recover from some real bad decisions personnelwise on his part.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 08:43 PM) Carlos Quentin might well have been worth less than Frasor, if you consider how much each of them are getting paid next year. You are really stretching that comparison. Apparently Danks wasn't valued as much as we must have thought either and he got $13M a year to stay. I think what I am most upset about is the complete lack of firm and understandeable direction and the willingness to overlook past fiascos made by our GM.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 08:41 PM) A five way deal could get us a Pujols or Hanley Ramirez for sure. It always works for annoying callers during the post-game show. Or let's just package a random 10-12 of these guys with Dunn/Rios and some team out there would be foolish not to take TEN players back, right? OK, if you say so

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2012 -> 08:32 PM) He can be interesting like KW Jr. can be interesting or the Sox drafting Ozney Guillen could be interesting, but reality is this guy has probably less than a 5% chance of ever being as good of a major league pitcher as Jason Frasor is right now, and no one is too upset Jason was sent backing for nothing. I hear you. I was expecting Frasor to go in a trade, but this one and especially CQ's trade baffle me. We have seen less talented players on other teams going in trades for much bigger returns. So we are saving money? For what? I hope it isn't to extend Rios and Dunn, who I remind you are still on the team and costing us a lot of money.

It seems every so called prospect we have in th system or traded for is projected as a middle inning reliever or fifth starter. Perhaps the Sox are changing the way we will be using the pitching staff? One to three innings by the starter and then use all these relievers we have stocked up on? That KW he is such a sneaky guy.

I am sorry but I don't agree with Balta that this trade had to happen. Shedding salary is one thing, but KW said we would be only trading for major league ready prospects. These two guys aren't it. Maybe Kenny needs a lesson on how to rebuild and remain competitive? I am very dissapointed to say the least. We had a real good player in CQ. He swings a good bat with power. He is a hardnosed player. We basicaly gave him away.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 28, 2011 -> 08:52 PM) Do people really think that there are these great offers for our guys that KW has gotten that he's just sitting on? Didn't the Danks extension pretty much prove that isn't the case, that the offers for our guys really haven't measured up? My feeling is this on that: If a GM thinks the Sox are in some kind of panic mode they won't give us what we want, or give any team what they want for a player in that situation. Plus maybe all along KW has figured this team can still compete and will not just give up a player for less than a grerat return in talent. Plus if we hang on and don't give in to some idea that we have to trade just because there is a clamor for it something might come along before spring training. We still have a good 2 1/2 to 3 months.

There are obviously a lot of "ifs" here, but I saw Humber pitch last year in Seattle against King Felix and he matched the Seattle super star pitcher all the way. Very impressive . I think he tired last season for bit, but came back strong. Anyway it will be interesting to say the least

I just refuse to believe this. If Adam Dunn was getting paid $14M a year he had better play and perform. I am sure every game he was penciled in to play was the game he was expected to turn things around in. There were lots of games he sat because it was to painful to watch and he just couldn't get the job done. Rios was another one for the most part. I think folks are just being a bit overly critical here towards Ozzie, et al. Now what I would say about criticism of Ozzie Guillen playing Dunn and Rios is to point to the fact some now say there is no way we can get rid of their contracts because they were dismal flops. Ok that is a valid argument. But, they then say we should trade our performers and keep Rios and Dunn and Peavy too. What do we do if they don't perform again? Keep them on the bench and play with 22 players instead of 25 and keep paying their inflated salaries? You can't have it both ways.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Dec 26, 2011 -> 05:03 PM) Why was your license suspended? Be careful with your newfound license freedom. John Law is always out there. Merry Christmas one and all. I'm at Midway Airport right now, terminal B in case anybody wants to come and punch me for my years on Soxtalk. I can even buy you a meal in the foodcourt. Greg, I would come visit and let you buy me dinner, but not sure I could make it in time.

Good story! How come the pic looks a lot like Jerry Dub-ski? Must have been the 80's thing

Merry Christmas. I got some White Sox stuff for Christmas, which I hope to model at Comiskey Park in 2012 when I attend some games