jphat007

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 10:37 PM) I don't agree with this at all. The very guy you mentioned earlier, Jim Thome, put up a .665 OPS in his first 98 AB's in the majors... http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4762/c...lb0f8HlO3mFCLcF It's normal for a prospect to struggle when they are first brought up. I said normally. Obviously there are kids that come up and struggle. He was hurt anyway. His numbers mean nothing for last year. I was half joking, though I would have been more impressed with something higher than a .438 OPS. That's 230 lower than Thome's.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 10:21 PM) I hope that Brian Anderson doesn't suck because he had a .559 OPS in 34 AB's last season. Why even bring up such a small sample size? It's pretty insignificant. And I really doubt that the Indians aren't happy with Andy Marte considering Aaron Boone was the only decent third baseman in their system. Aaron Boone sucks. By the way, link me up with Shapiro's negative comments on Coco. I'd like to see that. Sounds good. I don't think Anderson will be all that great either this year. Low .700 OPS probably. Obviously the smaple size means nothing. But when you are an incredible prospect destined for success, usually you come up and at least do SOMETHING in 50+ Abs. Smoltz OPS in 10 more AB was only 50 points lower. Haha. Not that it means anything. Still funny. At least Anderson hit the first 2 HR off of a pitcher that will dominate this league, all in one game, in Safeco. He can hang his hat on that for awhile. BA will likely be nowhere near as good as Marte though. I don't see Marte as a definite 900+ OPSer though. Those type guys aren't traded twice in an offseason. There is something fishy. Shapiro is a tool But anyway, 2006 is even better. They lost 4 of there top six 6 ERA guys (abover 50 IP), their defense got worse and lineup is worse. THey better hope Marte is good.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 27, 2006 -> 10:07 PM) Tribe finalizes two deals in a day Mota, Marte, Shoppach and Michaels headed to Cleveland http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/ml...t=.jsp&c_id=cle Indians get: RP Guillermo Mota 3B Andy Marte C Kelly Shoppach OF Jason Michaels Red Sox get: OF Coco Crisp RP David Riske C Josh Bard Phillies get: LRP Arthur Rhodes The Indians get worse for 2006 but better for the future. Possibly better for the future. You figure he'll be better than his 60 ABs last year. I mean, it's pretty tough to go lower than a .438 OPS. That's close to a Jim Thome OBP. Anyway. I love this deal. THank you Cleveland. ANd thank you Mark Shipiro for throwing Coco under the bus on his way out. LOL. You don't see many GMs saying how awful their player is in a certain aspect of the game on the way out.

I can't believe anybody expected him to go out any differently.

QUOTE(Heads22 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:37 PM) Zero, I hope. He sure as hell would get a good laugh at some of the stuff he read.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:29 PM) Or maybe not every poster here thinks that every White Sox player is a stud just because they are on the White Sox. Guys like Podsednik come to mind. There are many good players on the Sox but they aren't all great, even though they won a World Series. There is a reason KW improved our offense afterall. Never have I said they are all great. I applauded moving Rowand. I was fine with letting Frank go on. I don't think Pods is great. He is really good though. Especially at leading off.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:27 PM) Isn't that something that everyone is doing here though? None of our 6 current starting pitchers have had major injury problems in their pasts that I know about...yet even the people who are advocating holding onto Jose to let him dominate next year will come up with the "What if one of them gets hurt" argument. FG did. Jose did a little bit. Jon and Mark have been horses. But that has nothing to do with ability. THat has to do with luck, conditioning, etc.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:24 PM) Well then, is Buerhle's 4.91 ERA in the World Series "ace-like"? Maybe the Sox should trade him. Using postseason stats is way too small of a sample size. Barry Bonds would have been run out of baseball before he discovered his mystery cream if postseason stats were the end all. Also, going by what you 2 guys have been saying, shouldn't Jermaine Dye be dealt soon as well? He may have an option for 2007, I'm not sure, but he has had some lean years, and if he has another one, the option won't be picked up and they will lose him for nothing. Buerhle could be gone in a couple of years. I don't know if we can sign him. Trade him next offseason! Trade him!

QUOTE(SoxFan101 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:21 PM) Its funny because we got both extremes in this little argument..... one side totally undervalueing Contreras and probably overvalueing a prospect although he is a good one... and the other side totally overvalueing Contreras and prob is a bit of a whitesox homer..... because you know we all like to "slurp" our division foes. The funny thing is that this thread proves some of my point. People are LOOKING for faults in our players. SEARCHING for reasons that our players might not be as great as they appeared to be last year.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:21 PM) Scouts and GM's think that Lastings Milledge will be a good center fielder in the MLB but you don't seem to care much about that. You can't have it both ways. But they KNOW Contreras is a great pitcher in the league. They THINK Milledge will be a good/great player in the league. There is a HUGE difference.

QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:19 PM) I'm assuming you are talking about the WS, if not, sorry in advance. He had a 3.86 ERA in his only 2005 WS start. Now, thats a small sample size, yes, but that doesn't look too ace-like. (not to mention his 5.68 ERA in the 2003 WS) Wow. Just wow. Number 1 starter in all three series. Shut down Boston in a HUGE game for this team in the postseason, shut down the Angels twice, and 3 in 7 to Houston. You are reaching now. But like I said to SSH, I don't want to change your opinion. I only care about what our front office and pitching staff think.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:17 PM) Because Contreras was only awesome for approximately 19 starts (15 starts after All-Star break + 4 postseason starts). Sorry, but I want to see more before I dub him "one of the best pitchers in the league." I don't think I'm being unreasonable. Thats fine. I'm not trying to change your opinion. You can think what you want. I care much more what scouts and GMs in the league think.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:14 PM) LOL. I'm in trouble now. Tons of people in the league think he's a great pitcher now. But you and Felix are telling me otherwise. Man. This is tough one. Who do I trust? Maybe I should just ask you what makes a good pitcher. Cause if its not great stuff, knowledge of where and how to throw it and confidence, I don't know what the hell it is.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:11 PM) What is my angle? I just don't think that Contreras is a top pitcher in the league because of one good half season and one good postseason. What in the hell is wrong with that stance? What were you saying about Contreras after 2005 when he finished with a 5.50 ERA on the season? Show me a few years of consistency first and I will agree with you. And you want to trade him for a guy that has NEVER shown ANYTHIGN at the major league level. Meanwhile, Jose showed it on the BIGGEST STAGE that you can show it on. Which is more of a risk? Hmmm. I wonder? Jose has Top 3 stuff. He needed decent confidence. He got it. He was awesome. Why is that so difficult.

QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:07 PM) Hey, believe what you want about prospects. Joe Borchard has the majority of the people here paranoid about prospects, and you need to get over it. And no, this trade doesn't help the White Sox at the major league level, unless you believe McCarthy will do better starting than Contreras will, which is what I do believe. In 2004, Contreras sucked in New York and Chicago. In the start of 2005, Contreras was average. In the second half of 2005, he was superb. That makes one of the best pitchers in the league? I thought pitchers had to be consistantly good to be one of the best, silly me. He sucked in Chicago too, or did you forget about that? How does it appear KW agrees with you? This is the offseason, there is no limit on when the deals can be made. Hell, spring training hasn't even started yet. If a deal with Contreras is being worked on, its going to be worked on for awhile, mainly because it will be a rather big deal for our team. If KW trades COntreras for a couple of prospects before the seasons over (barring a callapse midseason) I'll say you were right. BUt I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Further, EVERYBODY agrees that Jose has some of the best stuff in the league. EVERYBODY agreed that all he needed was confidence. Once he got it he was dominanat from there one out. WHy the hell would he lose confidence when it should be the highest of his career right now?

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:03 PM) One good half a season and a good postseason does not make Contreras "one of the best pitchers in the league." Sorry. LOL. Any other angles? I've got KW backing my case up (among many others in the game). You have Felix, which is nice. You've gone back for so many angles. Next thing you know you'll be putting words in my mouth again. LOL. Why the hell do so many White Sox fans look for so many flaws in our players. It's hilarious.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 07:01 PM) This was how I was comparing them... Great Proven players: Jose Contreras Jim Thome Good Proven players: Aaron Rowand Unproven players: Brian Anderson Lastings Milledge Gio DH It's not close. ANd we traded Rowand to GET another great player. Not get an unproven prospect. We already had that prospect that was going to start soon anyway.

QUOTE(Felix @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:57 PM) I didn't realize having a spectacular half year made you one of the best pitchers in the league. And Milledge is one of the best prospects in the league. LOL. PROSPECT. Which means NOTHING at the big league level. Jose dominated the American freaking league in the playoffs and last year. Milledge was pretty good in AA. How the hell can you compare the two. And yes, Contreras is one of the best pitchers in the league. And if our GM didn't think so he would have already traded him away for something much less. I stated above why there is NO reason to expect him to go back to the way he was at the end of his NY stay. You are LOOKING for a reason for him to struggle if you do that. That is not a smart way to manage a club, and it appears KW agrees with me.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:56 PM) KW already traded away a good player to let "a player that may or may not be a good player in the league one day" start in center field. Obviously, he got Thome in return but he's still going with an unproven player in center field. LOL. You are comparing Contreras and Rowand. First, one is worth way, way more than than the other. Second, that move improved our team THIS year even if it puts a young player in CF. Those are two totally different situations anyway.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:47 PM) So you don't think that there's a difference in trade value for a pitcher who is under contract for only one season and a pitcher who is under contract for three years for example? Contreras's trade value would be the same if he was under contract for three years instead of only one? If KW is truly thinking that way, he's smoking too much of the wacky tobaccy. Of course he thinks about it. But any GM in the league would think about how he could maximize his team to win this year with the talent and situation that we have. Maximizing our chances for a WS this year would not be to trade one of the best pitchers in the league for a player that may or may not be a good player in the league one day. Any GM with KWs resources and situation is thinking about how to win this year unless he gets some incredible offer for Jose. Obviously Jose's trade value would be higher if he was already signed. I thought that was assumed too. That changes nothing in the situation that KW is currently in. Except for the fact that if he was signed, he could ask for a good starting pitcher now AND a great prospect. Most GMs in the upper half of payroll who have a chance of winning the WS don't trade one of hte best pitchers in the league for a player like Milledge.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:40 PM) If it is not even in KW's head to even think of trading Contreras, why did he say the following instead of saying, "I will not trade Jose Contreras, period."? http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=147020 One reason I could think of is that his buddy El Duque is now gone. I thought this was assumed. Of course KW leaves his options open. If the Mets offer Milledge and David Wright he is going to trade for him. But he did say that he will not settle for ANYTHING less than his value, and that doesn't include how many years he is here, and Milledge is not as valuable as Contreras right now. He can give El Duque a call if he is feeling lonely. Iguchi was also sad when we traded Shingo. He was still a similar player for the rest of the year, and Iguchi had NOBODY else close that was really on the team.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:28 PM) And if he goes somewhere else, the money the organization has put aside to sign him will be available for other players, whether in trade or free agents, and there are some pretty good looking free agents next season. Exactly. It seems rather obvious to me and you, and KW for that matter. Not saying that the others are wrong, but I get the feeling for some reason that people around here value players and prospects in other organizations much more than ours. It's really rather simple. Contreras has some of the best stuff in the league. Probably second only to Santana (and maybe Hernandez). All he needed was some confidence and a couple of mechanical fixes. He recieved both fo that last year. He now would have more confidence than any other time in his career to go along with that great stuff. WHY would he go back to his form in NYY when he was tiping pitches and depressed. There is just nothing to support that. You don't give up 1 year of a player that will likely be a Top 5 of 10 pitcher in a year because you don't want to get anything in return. If that was the way general managers worked, you'd be trading everyone for prospects all the time and would never get close to a championship. There is no reason to think Contreras will revert to his old form. I mean, he freaking pitched in the first game of every playoff series. He is a different pitcher.

QUOTE(DBAH0 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 06:04 PM) Some good discussion going on here. My thoughts are this; I don't believe Milledge is purely a product of East Coast Hype. I think he'll be better then Reed (who I still think will be a good player), plus he's got that 5 tool potential. However, at the moment, KW's not going to trade JC for LM straight up. Bringing Aaron Heilman into the equation, does make it more interesting though. That way we'll still have 6 pitchers who are able to start, and you can either B-Mac or Heilman into the rotation. Doing this, saves payroll, and allows for KW to make a big mid - season trade. I was one of JC's biggest backers during 2005, and I believe he's an excellent pitcher. That said, the way things have played, can the Sox afford to let him go for nothing, if we don't end up winning the world series. I don't think you can risk it and give up your best chance for a WS because you (*the team) are scared of what might happen in the future.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 05:59 PM) I guess I just fear losing Contreras for nothing after 2006 and I will feel worse if he has a bad season. If we at least got a couple draft picks for losing him to free agency, it wouldn't be so bad. And you'd feel even worse if we traded him, he was awesome for the rest of the year and his career, Milledge wasn't anything special, and somebody got hurt. Even if 1 or 2 of those thigns happen it could screw us over. Kenny's job is to win the WS in the current year first and prepare for the future second. Trading Contreras for Milledge does not put us in a better position this year which is why KW wouldn't and won't do it.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Jan 26, 2006 -> 02:54 PM) Now that's a stance I can respect. I just don't like the "Milledge could be a bust" argument. Hell, for all we know Contreras could be a bust next season without his buddy El Duque around. Now, I don't think that will be the case but it's definately a possibility. Uh oh Rowand. You hear that? You have Jabroni's respect now!! You're set. We don't need to trade for Milledge. It's a risk. A risk we don't need to take.