Wong & Owens

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Jan 12, 2006 -> 03:26 PM) You do know that the scientific process was work of the devil when it was orginally brought to the world's attention.. Because now all the Chruches lies would be proven to be just that. I'm sorry you all are correct, maybe I misused the words.. There is prove there is no God.. But, Science can not prove this, just as they can not prove his brother's easter bunny and Santa Claus, and his sister the tooth Fairy are real or not. "AnthraxFan93, Because Atheists Need Our Own Pat Robertson."

Not necessarily, I love talking about this stuff and could go on for hours if called for. It's never been called for so far What I meant was, since I don't believe in the devil, it wouldn't therefore compute that a devil would have used myths or folklore to mislead us from going down the proper road. I believe the devil was created because sometimes the promise of lots of good things for good people isn't motivation enough. Some people need to have something behind the "or else," if you catch my drift.

Nope, you're off a bit. I am completely open to the idea that humans and other life on earth was "designed" by an "intelligent" being. I am not open, however, to the idea that this being has anything to do with any god referred to in any ancient text that today's religions use as the basis for their existence. I don't buy that, given that the myths/legends pre-date the bible. And since I don't believe in the devil anyways, this is a concept that doesn't compute for me.

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Jan 12, 2006 -> 01:35 PM) Trying what.. I don't know how much easier I have to paint you a picture.. I comparing the same sitaution only with different subjects. Yet you are still can not make a case for your point with out hiding behind that F word. And to prove to us that you have the F word, I offer a challege to anyone.. and of course you refuse to accept. STOP THE INSANITY!!!!!!!

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Jan 12, 2006 -> 11:49 AM) I'd like some insight as to why you think the Bible was entirely made up. Not trying to argue, just trying to understand your point of view. My statement may have been oversimplified a bit, but I do believe that the majority of the bible is either "Titanic" meaning a completely fictional story is created around a few hostoric facts, or borrowed from other cultures/religions. For example, take the story of the last supper. In Norse mythology, the story of the death of the god balder is summarized here: The Norse demigod, Loki, an evil and mischievous being, was not invited to join 12 other gods at a banquet at Valhalla, the great banquet hall of Norse gods. Angered by the slight, he showed up anyway (like Judas, the unwelcome 13th guest), and during what was supposed to be a harmless game, caused the death of Balder, the god of light, joy, purity, beauty, innocence, and reconciliation Another example-- the Epic of Gilgamesh(predating the bible by hundreds or thousands of years) contains a "great flood" story. A third --Take the similarities between christianity and mithraism, which was a religion that again predates christianity and had a decent following in the roman empire right up to christianity's emergence: “The resemblances between the two churches were so striking as to impress even the minds of antiquity” (Cumont, 193). From their common Zoroastrian sources, Mithraism first held that all souls pre-existed in the ethereal regions, and inhabited a body upon birth. Life then becomes a great struggle between good and evil, spirit and body, the children of light versus the children of darkness (identical to Pythagoreanism). All souls were to be judged by Mithra (represented as a bull) with the Elect going to heaven, and the earthly and evil being annihilated in a great battle. Mithraism divided the human race into three classes: the spiritual Elect, the wicked, and those who try to be good but can't seem to overcome evil. The Elect go straight to heaven, while the good-intentioned wait until judgment to be resurrected, where the wicked will be destroyed. Both Christianity and Mithraism prided themselves in brotherhood and organized their members as church congregations. Both religions purified themselves through baptism, and each participated in the same type of sacrament, bread and wine. Mithra was born in a cave; a cave is likewise the setting for the nativity of Jesus in the widely-read and influential Gospel of James, which though not canonical is the earliest surviving document attesting the veneration of Mary and claiming her continuing virginity. Both nativities were celebrated on December 25th, and each savior was visited by shepherds with gifts. Both Mithraism and Christianity considered Sunday their holy day, despite early Christianity observing the Jewish Sabbath for centuries. Many have noted that the title of Pope is found in Mithraic doctrine and seemingly prohibited in Christian doctrine. The words Peter (rock) and mass (sacrament) have original significance in Mithraism. Both Mithraism and early Christianity considered abstinence, celibacy, and self-control to be among their highest virtues. Both had similar beliefs about the world, destiny, heaven and hell, and the immortality of the soul. Their conceptions of the battles between good and evil were almost identical, with Christianity adopting millennial epochs that were integral to Mithraism from Zoroastrianism. “They both admitted to the existence of a heaven inhabited by beautiful ones…and a hell peopled by demons situate in the bowels of earth.” (Cumont, 191) Both religions placed a flood at the beginning of history, and both believed in revelation as key to their doctrine. Both awaited the last judgment and resurrection of the dead after the final conflagration of the world. Christ and Mithra were both referred to directly as the "Logos" (Larson 184). I truly believe that anyone that waves these aside as pure coincidence is just wearing blinders. The bible is chock full of things like this, and if the bible isn't even original, then how could it possibly be the word of god? If all these stories are myths and legends, then how can any of it be taken to heart?

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Jan 12, 2006 -> 11:37 AM) History and Science two things the Chruch/Religion hate because over the years it proves them wrong.. Examples: The Chruch told the world that the Sun revolved aorund the earth because god made it so.. Along comes Galileo with and that there Science and proves the chruch wrong. They were nice to him they only bannned him from the chruch.. Through out history if you were to prove the chruch wrong they would kill you.. Nice Huh! The Truth is not in Black and White as the church/bible thinks it is, they have stolen others ideas and claimed them as their own to make-up their cults. The bible are full of them, one of the most misleading stories in the bible that the Church uses is that of Jesus.. They tell you their version of the story.. Which is only about 25% truth, the rest is made up to further "trick" one into thinking their way. See, I agree with with most of what you're saying here, but it's the way that you phrase it that rubs people the wrong way. You can't take the actions of some people and say that it speaks for the belief system as a whole(although I'm on the same side as you on the issue), and then pose it as indisputable fact that the whole belief system is a crock. There will hopefully one day be found indisputable proof that the whole of the bible was simply made up, thus rendering most religions null and void, but until that day comes, you sound like an arrogant jerk.

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Jan 11, 2006 -> 03:40 PM) I am giving you the truth and you can't accept the facts.. or even try and debate me.. Your a fairly intelligent man, use the muscle in between your ears and see the lies that you have been told for years.. I know its hard to do. For men/ women can not accept change. So If my beliefs are that we should rape little girls so that they won't have sex until later on in life, that is okay and no one should have a problem with them because they are mine.. And if not then they are not respecting them? (And yes this is the same argument) Lastly, Hell is a about as real as me becoming the first black President. Heaven on the other hand is attainable, if one knows the secrets that Jesus told us, to bad the Church and Bible have it wrong. Um, dude, I'm totally voting you out of the club come next month's godless heathen meeting. You don't have any more answers than YAS does, no need to act omniscient

QUOTE(AnthraxFan93 @ Jan 11, 2006 -> 03:17 PM) I would love one, since there is no god.. If there is please show me proof.. One must ask the simple question Did God create man, or did man create god to give their lives meaning? personally I see the lader.. OK, as the chairman of Atheists for Proper Grammar, I believe it's 'latter' you meant to say there.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 03:56 PM) If you read back through the thread, you'll see that W&O was the first to fire off a condescending post. You'll have to forgive me for being defensive. LOL, what a joke. Which post was that?

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 03:51 PM) W&O also didn't claim that he wasn't trying to be better than anyone else either. Man, do I have a bad rep around here or what? I certainly DO NOT claim to be better than anyone else here, but I do pose the challenge to any objective parties to go through this thread and tell me where I was out of line? I mean, you write "the car is red" and the response you get is "oh, so blue cars suck?" and you can only politely point out the error in the logic so many times before it just pisses you off.

Nope, it's the boarding schools setup and funded by groups like Al-Qaeda that provide the children of many of these poor countries with the only chance at an education that they will ever have. Unfortunately, part of the curriculum involves teaching that america is the devil and must be destroyed. IN some ways, this is absolutely missionary-type work. Not the good kind however. Based on what? Because you don't believe them? Fantastic! I haven't "s***" on anybody. It's you people that can't handle being challenged and resort to name-calling and pulling comments and trashing them completely out of context. I've never been to a brewery, never worked directly with anyone who worked at a brewery. However I am 100% certain that I have a working knowledge of how beer is made. This statement is 5 billion times more ignorant than anything you're accusing me of You must be friends with WCSox. Please point me to where I said anything other than 22 years of cath. school qualifies me to have anything other a WORKING KNOWLEDGE of missionary work. I wonder what you're saying about the catholic education system if you're claiming that I don't have some idea of what they do after 22 years?

OK, being respectful and all, but what I meant is almost exactly the opposite of what you took from it. And I didnt once mention anything about missionaries being corrupt, I have no idea where you're getting this from. Nope, not at all, people have been creating them to explain the unexplained since the beginning of time. I'm not responding to this because I have no idea what it has to do with what weve been debating here. Not trying to be an ass, I just am not following you here.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 03:07 PM) That's funny... you're the one who began arguing with me on the divine justice topic. Talk about hypocritical... :headshake You're missing the point, again, and you've moved into posting rebuttals that make no sense whatsoever. Have fun with that, and please pass the pro-religion baton to someone capable of debating this without the aforementioned b.s. You're not Juggernaut's relative by chance, are you?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:58 PM) I never said that corporate crime has definitely increased over the past 20 years. And talk about speculation... :rolly 1) And I never said you did. Are you that hypocritical, or just that excited to be in an argument?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:48 PM) Funny how you single out violent crime. What about divorce and marital infidelity? Has corporate crime declined over the past 20 years? :rolly Divorce is not a crime, and I really doubt infidelity rates are any higher now than they used to be. The rates are probably higher amongst women, because women in the 1950's for example, would have had to fear for their lives(in a manner of speaking) would they ever be found cheating on their husbands or doing anything that might lead to their husbands divorcing them. I don't know much about corporate crime rates, but since you seem to be inclined to believe they have increased, it'd be great if you could post some figures that would back up your claim.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:41 PM) Given the abundance of immoral/unethical behavior in our country already, I'd hate to see how much further downhill it goes when nobodys fears divine justice. Apparently you missed this fact in the countless other threads in which this myth has been exposed--- In this country, EVERY MAJOR VIOLENT CRIME STATISTIC IS IN DECLINE. If you have a better benchmark for measuring the "morality" of a nation, I'd like to hear about it.

QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:34 PM) "You spend years" who the hell are you talking to? unless you have been a missionary, i find this talk rather dense and ignorant...i know missionaries and their experience is far different than the one you present. I'd trust their word. I was talking to Southsider, who I believe made the original post. I went to 22 years of catholic schools, I'm supremely confident I have a pretty good idea what missionary work has involved over the centuries(Unless what they tell you about missionaries is all lies, which I suppose wouldn't be the first time). Enough of a working knowledge to make the comment I made. And, if you disagree so vehemently, please share with the class why you disagree with what I said regarding missionaries. It would make it alot easier to respond to

QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:23 PM) aree you serious? since when do people need a formal education to follow religion? They obviously don't. I don't see your point.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:21 PM) So, because they're uneducated, they're unintelligent and can't think for themselves? Got it. :headshake Nope, that's not the issue here at all.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:22 PM) No offense, but wow is that arrogant. It's not arrogant, it's the truth. You spend years and years sending missionaries down to these countries where people have no food, no rights no shelter, etc. And show them some kindness by providing food, medicine, etc.(which is a great thing and kudos to those respective religious groups for their generosity) and they will believe in whatever religion you teach them, because you've given them the only hope they have. Why is it that all these countries are churning out huge number of catholics/christians, but no buddhists or hindus or taoists?

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:11 PM) Does that survey discount all of Central and South America, which is pretty much all Catholic? Central and South America(and much of Africa for that matter) are populated primarily by uneducated, unsophisticated people that would believe in anything someone with a sandwich and sentiments of hope tells them to believe in. The only figures that matter are those taken from mostly developed countries.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 01:33 PM) Poland as well. Not for much longer: The only Western Christian country which has a church attendance higher than that of the U.S. is Ireland. More than 90% of adults went to church during the 1960's. A poll by Irish Marketing Surveys released in 1999-DEC, found that only half of the population of the Irish Republic currently attended church weekly. (This is a reduction from about 63% in 1998). 10% went once a month; 5% went on holy days; 13% never went to church at all. A spokesperson for the Archbishop of Dublin blamed the recent reduction on a series of sex scandals by priests in the Roman Catholic church.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 12:55 PM) Unfortunately, the statistics don't agree with you there...while Christianity sure seems to be on the wane in other countries, church attendance is on the rise in this country, according to the most recent census data. That doesn't say that at all. It says certain churches had growth, but didn't elaborate on most of them. As a whole, people who consider themselves "religious" to the point that they actually practice is in decline in this country. Ask any catholic diocese in the country about their growth rate.....

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 12:19 PM) But according to LCR, we shouldn't go to church at all (especially if we're Catholic) because organized religion has done so many terrible things. :rolly And we won't, eventually: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060109/...nA2BHNlYwM3NDI- Think that won't happen here at some point? Got news for you, it already is, right or wrong.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060105/od_uk_...HBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-