BrandoFan

Niiiiice...mommy issues flaring up again??

Make that 12 (over many years) if he has an All-star type year this time around. For some reason he is considerered to be a "good" fielding shortstop and his offensive mojo will net him a huge contract. Forget about it.

Jason, for the limited time I've posted on these boards I've known you to be a very knowledgeable person who not only poses interesting arguements on the game but is also able to look into/beyond the numbers....which is why I am short of stunned reading your Jose vs. Jimenez/Miles/winning commentary above. I had no less than 10 posts on this thread alone backing up my opinion in regard to Jose's underrated offense (clutch hitting, Rbi ratio, etc), baserunning (taking extra bases, regulating on base traffic, etc) and a not-as-bad-as-it-seems defense...with actual numbers. I also briefly discussed the intangible off-field leadership skills as irrelevant as they sometimes may be...I hope you read before replying because I am frankly tired of repeating myself. I'll only say this (again): forget about Jose's range, arm, ability to save a run with positioning, nifty DP-turning and other perception-related things that definataly save runs but are hard to "prove" and require actual game-watching.....Jose's "awful" defense that supposedly makes him such a "mediocre" player...has so far cost the Sox a grand total of 3-4 runs and a one loss this Sunday. I've brought up Konerko, Jimenez and Tejada whose fewer lapses brought in MORE runs....if that doesn't translate into clutch defensive performance, I don't know what does. Please enlighten me. (BTW I think you are familiar with the study done in 2000 on this saving/costing runs subject pertaining to Jose versus other SS...so 2003 is not a fluke in that respect. To wit: he makes ton of routine errors in non-critical situations and saves a whole a lot more. Sunday was one of the trule few exeptions, and considering other Sox players did jack squat, blaming Jose for the loss is ridiculous)

I defend Jimenez more than anybody, but I find the above to be inaccurate, to say the least. Jim-Jim has only 3 errors (by comparison louded Mark Ellis has 7) but they accounted for 5 runs, one more (well, 2 more if you don't count KC game) than Jose's 9. And I am not even going to go into the huge difference in perceived range and even arm strenght....or that SS position is more difficult than 2B.

Anybody else see what's wrong with this statement courtesy J-Mar?

Another jealous hater!

Looks like the cause of your "chronic wide-hipness" has surfaced.

Rex, stop the whoop-assing- Baldie McWeakchin is gonna cry any moment now...lol

Go back and check Durham's OPS from April to mid-May 2000. Do your own fact-checking, don't waste my time.

Ok, "residence-challenged" if you prefer.

The weirdest part of all is that 2000 Sox scored 950 runs and they had bums like Singleton, Fordyce, Norton, Abbott, etc....other than that we have the same players, some of whom should have gotten better by now...Maybe Garry Word totally deserves the blame.

That's not true, you can never assume a double play and the ball wasn't hit hard enough to Paulie. You think A-Rod would have thrown Pierzinky or whomever out? Common now.

Ask me again in August when Jose has 85 Rbi, 15 of them of game-deciding variety, scores a bunch from 1st on marginal doubles, moves runners along, turns close to a 100 DPs, ect, etc....part of the reason this is a badly underachieving team is that we have next to nobody who is doing all of that, and even struggling Jose is valuable in that respect. As far as intangibles go, they are what they are. If Jimenez is playing well for the first time because Jose vouched to "kick his butt" every morning...if Jose moderates peace talks with Thomas....helps the helpless Manuel gauge the players' temperature....somehow talks Buerhle into staying with the Sox for an extra year or two...mentors Crede....shows up Sosa in Wrigley...handles the national press in the pennant....it won't show up in Jose's stat column, you're right. Take it or leave it. Its not the only thing that counts as far as winning is concerned, but it counts in a long run...if only toward a player's popularity...and with this fan-challenged team, it's a lot

I don't think he is been that big of a problem and stats support it....Again, I would never say Jose is a Gold Glover...but he is not nearly the Error Boogiman he is being portrayed as after one frickie' game. If he gets the runner ay 1st in that situation and preserves the lead, I bet noone goes "Jose made a great play and saved a run"...He is below-average on D. all things considered and gets paid as such. I gave Tejada as an example. As far as mythical "defensive clutch'ness" is concerned, example: Paul Konerko's inept defensive play and lack of range must have cost the Sox 5-8 runs in this year's first 2 series alone (thankfully generous scoring only game him 2 errors). Think about that for a second...Jose has 9 errors and yet only 4 runs ALL year (1 Minnesota, 2 in Oakland and 1 in KC if you disreagrd the fact that runner would have scored from 3rd on the play regardless) and that, combioned with his range, arm and DPs, spells C-L-U-T-C-H. So lay off, will ya? . Exactly. I love Jose's leadership, his clutch play and the fact that he took less money to stay with the Sox...but I would totally welcome Tejada, Renteria, etc if we could get them. But we won't...so Jose must stay as an everyday SS if we want to win.

Reality...insecurity-driven megalomania...what's the difference, right?

At 5 Mill a year? Are you f***ing crazy, with JR's approach to spending/team-building at that? LOL. Once again, for the 'tarded ones: Jose is too streaky/mental a hitter to thrive in Daubach's role. He brings to much as an everyday guy and so little as a part-time player sa proven by his incosistant play in 2001-2002 when platooned with the Choice...He would routinely go 2-4 with 2 RBI's and would sit the next two games...it didn't work too well and neither did pinch-hitting. He needs confidence and if you don't put him in that position, you might as well let him go. This is moot, Jose will not stay with this team as a utility guy evcen if we were to pick up his option next year. There is always Anaheim/SanFranciso/Atlanta/Met's-type team who will give him a shot if he puts up decent numbers this year.

That's even more idiotic than making him a DH...He is a winner playing on a club full of (talented) losers. He is easily worth 3-5 Mill to a WINNING team because of aformentioned skills he brings, but his value goes down significantly if 1) he doesn't play on a winning team, 2) doesn't get regular at bats. and 3) doesn't play every day SS...He is not worth the money if he doesn't start. Especially to the budget-tight Sox...Either win with Jose every day in the line-up or get rid of him in a WF-type firesale. End of story.

I am as frustrated with this team as you are dude , trust me. But what does that have to do with facts such as: --Jose is a clutch hitter who despite his usual slow start, has 22 RBIs out of second spot. When he heats up and when this whole team puts more ROB, that EASILY transpates into 100 RBIs...out of 2nd spot at that. What, you expected A-Rod? --One hell of a base-runner on a team that can't f***ing score on 4 f***ing non-IF singles even with his ham-stings. If you are watching games like I say you do, how can you not notice "little" things like him efforlessly taking extra bases and scoring on from second on a single, etc as well as anybody in the game. --He doesn't have his old range, but it's still above average (how many dive catches does he make, ah?) and his arm was never in doubt. So he commits a lot of routine errors, so what if they ONLY COST THE SOX 4 LEGITIMATE RUNS without adjusting how many runs he "saves" with his quick DPs and force outs at 2nd...he has only 4 more errors than weak-armed Vizquel for crying out loud. what else do you want? Gold Glove? Yeah, whatever, a gold glove SS costs A LOT....Afterall you watch games, those things should be very apparent to you. Renterioa straight up for Jose? Sure, why not...but it ain't gonna happen. Instead, you will have a little-range, mediocre arm, almost as unreliable Graffanino who doesn't turn a good DP, run nearly as well and who probably won't be as good/clutch with a stick in the longer run....is that what you want? Or Jimenez maybe? Hummel? Miles? Forget about leadership skills/intangibility and popularity, those are not thew PRIMARY reasons Jose is valuable, but they matter more than you think. This team will turn it around, trust me.

Yeah, but out of how many game? We all know Valentin rarely starts against lefties, and Tejada's an everyday SS. He played in plenty of games to make the comparison valid. The point was not that Valentin is a better filding SS than Tejada (he is not: though he has more range than heavy Tejada and certainly charges the bunts better, Tejada's is arm is a touch more reliable), but that people seriously underrate Jose;s D. tinking he is this terrible, worst fielder of all time...which he is not. He is usually very clutch defensively (how many diving thefts has made in the lasty 3 years with ROB? A lot), making a ton of errors with noone on base. Before his hamstring issues, he had a ton of range and still has a very strong arm and quick release. Finally, his DP-turning and positioning is superb and that correct a lot of routine mistakes he commits. I would say he is slightly below-average defensively (if he was a good filder, he wold be making 9-10 million a year for a playoff team) all things condered and can improved DRAMATICALLY if he ever decides to tweak his throwing motion. He is certainly not the defensive liability most people make him out to be. Just watch some games.

Ah, The Cade McClown Story...didn't they made a musical out of it?

Considering that (unlike the sad 2001 campaign when half of our leaders went down) we are a healthy team and adding to it the truly weak-ass schedule we had in April this year...I'd say we looked WAY worse than I ever imagined.

I couldn't disagree more...and, believe me, I've been telling myself that we are not good for a long-ass time to alleviate the enourmous disappointment, but I simply see too much talent on this team. It would be intellectually lazy and easy, IMO, to dismiss this team as "mediocre" talent-wise (as people like bmr and a few others seem to be doing)....We are not the 160-million Yankees, of course, but we are just as talented as Seattle Mariners, Boston and Oakland A's. Easily...and that's what's so upsetting to me. YMMV. Example: forget about 2000 for a second...in 1999 we had a team full of unknown youngsters and next to no payroll (half of it was Frank Thomas and he went on the DL for the last 2 months, lol!) and yet we were one bad streak away from finishing at .500, I don't need to tell you how good Indians were that year. We had Bobby Howry as our closer!...This year we are projected to be worse than that record-wise despite having literally twice as much talent and weaker division. If that's not "severe underachievement", I don't know what is... Are you saying Konerko, Crede and Lee topped out at ripe ol' age of 23? And Garland at 21 in 2001? Buerhle at 22 last year? Magglio at 28? Etc, etc, etc.

Valentin's 9 errors have cost the Sox grand total of 3 or 4 runs depending on how you score them. Tejada's 12 errors have cost the A's 6 or 8 runs depending on how you score them. In was Jose's first error in 10 games and his throwing has been more sound mechanically lately. Today was bad, he went for too much trying to hit running Wunsht and get Gordon out of the jam, sure no arguement from me...but let's keep it in perspective, shall we? Next time Jose scores on a blooping single all the way from first, remember your post. Ditto for him coming up with a clutch extra-base hit. 22 RBIs from your smart-running, SS who is hitting second and who hasn't even gotten hot yet? Most playoff teams would gladly take that without hesitation. Did I mention his leadership? I guess if it doesn't show up in the stat column, it doesn't exist, right? Renteria is having a career year and will demand 8-10 million a year if he keeps it up. Easily. Enough said. And if you think Miles is the savior, I have a solar system to sell you.

---Olivo is looking better and better with every atbat, going deeper in the count and timing it well. Today against a tough pitchers he had 2 hard line drives go foul in his 'out' atbats in addition to a base hit. His defense and speed go without saying. In 2 years, he'll be the best catcher in AL barring an injury, he is alreayd learning to make complex adjustments mid-atbat swing-wise. ---Daubach looks like he is ready to go on his patented 2-week hitting tear. Caveat: he is not Wander Valt or Lenny Harris- he absolutely needs regular at bats. With Harris down and Maggs playing CF (I told you!) he will get his opportunities. He looked all kinds of sharp today, giving a hell of a battle to Hawkins. ---Graffanino's swing is getting shortter and quicker while his eye is improving compared to his utility self from 2000-2001, and I really would like to see him platoon with Crede, unless the latter can have more at bats like he did today against Lohse and Guirdado where he drives the ball and lays off junk in the dirt...Joe also plays clutch, impecable defense of late. ---Marte and Wunsht are awesome. Not much to say about that. --Gordon threw an unfortunate 0-2 mistake today, but his fastball was snapping 95-96 and his two curves are lethal. I truly believe he is ready to break out. Remains tor be seen. ---Loiaza was the embodiment of what 'clutch' means for a pitcher. Had C+ stuff today and still pitched well enough to go 7 innings (99 pitches), lowering his ERA to otherwordly (for 3rd starter) 1.99. ---Carlos Lee was robbed of a 400-feet home yesterday and is finally starting to see the ball, putting authority if a bit overlong swings, in tough pitcher's pitches. He is a tiny adjustment away from breaking out. ---Konerko is still struggling, but his batspeed has increased in the last few weeks. Like Daubach, Crede and Lee, I think he will step up VERY soon. ---Valentin had a HORRIBLE error today, but it was his first error in, what, 10+ games, one fo the few ones that actualy cost the Sox; his throwing has improved since he throws lower trajectory lately than he used to, hardly sails it anymor...More importantly, for the first time in nearly a month he's actually looked good at the plate mechanically speaking, and was once again clutch with ROB (homer, walk and single) against sneaky Lohse who's given him plenty of trouble. As much as Jose has struggled (if you can call 22-RBI from your SS from the 2nd spot that), he was actually much worse this time last year before heating up. When Jose starts seeing the ball, watch out. --In addition to that, we have Magglio who is yet to get hot and his being moved to more "prestigious" CF might be the confidence boost he deperately needs- how does "All-Star CF Magglio Ordonez" sound? LOL...Did I mention Frank Thomas is proving me wrong, actually having the highest OPS in the league in the last week? I've been down on this team since the first KC, and, to be fair, they severely underperformed, totally deserving fans' wrath...However this team is finally starting to turn it around and is, IMO, one Jeff Abbot-type, late-inning heroics away from 16-4 run. Here's hoping we don't get Twinkiedome'd too much in the future. Go Sox!

Pop quiz, hot shot...better closer is... A. MacDougal B. Biddle