BrandoFan

Thank God you are not a major league GM then. oh, the horror! In all seriousness Cubkilla, I was VERY upset at the timing of the trade (well, you know how 14 year olds ARE about betrayal and stuff...) and OF COURSE, ideally, 3.5 games out of first place with more than a month to go isn't exactly the best time to rebuild...but, apparently Shueller had a different take (that one that agrees with me or vice versa) on OUR CHANCES that year as the deadline was looming and then came SanFrancisco with a hot offer (like I said, trading for 4 A/A-minus list prospects for overpaid and overrated veterans? Every other GM's dream)......... Again, numbers could be misleading; in 2001 we had NO chance catching Cleveland IMO even though we came within the same 3.5 games during the weekend at the Metrodome. So, do you think Kenny Wiliams wouldn't have JUMPED at the chance to trade Valentin/Clayton, Wells and Carlos Lee for 4 Willie Harris/Diaz-type prospects if such takers were to be found? And 2001 (the year when we were supposed to be even more dominant than in 2000) is in no way compareable to the 1997 fiasco when we were old and payroll was almost 20 million higher, mind you...I think you are letting your personal philosophy (never trade while out by only single digits, etc) and fan's bias get in the way of the much bigger picture and baseball reality. IMO, had Barcelo's pitching arm not exploded in 2000 and had Caruso been seasoned a bit more in AA/AAA and kicked his drug habit, the WFT could have been looked upon as one of the best in a decade. Too bad.

I am saying no such thing, cubkilla. Those were different teams with different circumstances, so you might as well leave them out, mmkay? Quit yer extrapolatin'. It's like me saying that, according to yor logic, there'd be NO perfect time to EVER overhaul a rotting and dying team. Look, it's great to live in a la-la land and think that Reindorf would have kept everybody past 97, perhaps expanding the payroll to 80 Million pulling Colon-esque trades and successfully transforming the Sox into the Yankees of the Midwest...BUT IT WASN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. We wouldn't be good enough to overtake Cleveland in 98-99 seasons regardless. So SOMETHING had to be sacrifized and it was the (15%) chance at catching the Tribe in 97. Cry me a river. Bottomline: everything depends on whether or not we were going to catch Cleveland, and considering how TRULY mediocre we were, it wasn't going to happen. Ultimately, we gave up MANY millions worth of old and overrated players in exchange for 6 solid prosects, 4 of which were VERY productive almost immediately (not many complained when Barcelo was wowing scouts with his filthy stuff and uncanny maturity and fast-running SS Caruso was making the jump from A to the bigs in only one year and was very successful therein despite being only 20, the move that in all fairness looks ill-advised now, but that's besides the point)...Hindsight is 20/20, isn't it? Kinda like me dismissing our chances in 97 (It's also highly debateable whether Sox lost fans because of WFT as Sox fans have pretty much abandoned the team after the 94-95 seasons.) ETA: I completely forgot about the Bevington Factor

Lorenzo Barcelo and Brooks Kieshniek. Both if not HOF talents then certainly All-Star ones. Injuries f*cked the former and being rushed through to the majors without fixing the hole in the swing did in the latter.

I know you did, baggio . I was replying to the other dude.

Oh, common...I'd understand the outrage if you had said we belonged in the top 7, but top 18? That's only 4 places higher than current 22. That's, like, nothing...And the ranking isn't EXACT science, you know. Not by a long shot...but you are welcome to PROVE why exactly the Sox FS is better than 22nd if you can. Maybe I am missing something. . 1. Rauch isnt NEARLY as tauted after the surgery as he was a year ago. 2. Malone had a REALLY bad year comparatively. Yes, he was hurt, but that's no excuse as far as whoever making the ratings is concerned. In fact, injury factor makes it worse. 3. Honel is 20 and a low A ball player. Enough said. 4. Olivo is really good, but he hit just 260 in his 3 years before this one and the fact that Billy Beane (read: God) traded him away doesn't make his stock rise. Besides, he GOT PROMOTED. 5. Borchard's AAA days are numbered and scouts know it. (So far, you are 0 for 5) Lemme see: Ginter is a bust and Biddle has done NOTHING of note and is injury prone; Kip Wells, Mark Buerhle and Fogg as well as Garland and Wright are no longer in the minors as you might have heard by now. Ditto for Crede and Rowand and Harris. Stumm had a serious operation as did Barcelo. Bobby Valentine is traded and Mario Valenzula suffered a SERIOUS shoulder injury. Brooks Kieshniek is no longer with the club and both Ulacia and West have dissappointed scouts while pitching in a pitcher-friendy stadium. Tim Hummel had a terrible year and Fernandez was traded. Casey Rogowski had an injury-laden year. Ditto for power-throwing Kyle Kane...I mean, that's like 25 quality people being promoted/busting/injuring in the span of less than 2 years...WOW, is our system depleted or what?! (Munoz, Ring, Almonte and Miles were the only ones who impressed scouts very much and I doubt they are going to be in the minors for long (either brought up or in case of 26yo Miles traded). The thing is that they are relief pitchers. Not nearly as important as position or starting pitchers) Only additions of Cotts and Diaz as well as progress of Anthony Webster kept us from sliding into the Bottom Five in my opinion. So, you see why Sox farm system circa 97-2000 (that also had Maggs, Lee, Crede, Sirotka Parque as well as highly touted Barcelo, fast-moving Caruso and power-hitting Leifer and AA AllStar Jeff Abbott) is NOT nearly the same as the one we have NOW as far as Major League scouts and professional writers are concerned. Look around you, man. There are other teams besides besides the Sox with talent to boot. And for the love of all that's holy, stop pretending that Sox were "snubbed" or "insulted". Maybe Jim Fainter was right about fans' blind optimism afterall

You read WAY too much into my statement. Baseball, right.

That very true, Jim, but here's the thing, though: Players like Borchard, Rauch, Crede, Jimenez (at least before neck injury) and to th lesser extend Garland, Wright, Malone, Honel and Barcelo and Stumm of 3 years ago, etc are/were practically UNANIMOUSLY praised and accolade'ed (lol) young players that ANY scount will tell you is the real deal. They might not pan out, sure, but it's not like Sox fans are the ones making the minor league All-Star appearances and putting up great stats FOR them. Sure, when you talk about border-line players like Stewart and Hummel and Fernandez, fans may and often do exaggerate their abilities and get carried away in general excitement, but marque talents are just that. Ratings depend on so many unpredicable and subjective factors that they are almost worthless. Give me a couple of Mark Priors, Joe Borchards, Barry Zitos and Mark Buerhles and a 30th ranked system...than the much-lauded Indians one that has proven JACK so far. Of course it's not as clear cut black &white as I am making it out to be, and that great teams often have both: 2-3 electifying individual talents and an overall strong system simply because they have resources and talent directors/scouts who know their friggin' baseball...but if faced with a choice, give me more "talent" and less "depth" even if it comes at the expense of now. I can wait for Corwin Malone, but no more Jim f***ing Parques if you know what I mean. Maybe I am wrong.

We ARE numbers 22...but who cares! A couple of good drafts and couple of A-ers (say, Honel, Webster, Cotts and Ring) making unexpected noise later and we are back in the top 3. My concern is the BIG club youngsters (i.e. Garland, Wright, Rauch, Crede, Jimenez, Harris, Rowand, Olivo, Borchard, Marte and even Lee and Konerko to a lesser extent)- if they can keep maturing and building on their already-intriguing skills, then we WON'T need to have 5 minor-league champtionship teams and enourmous depth across our farm system as there only a few roster spots abailable to youngsters anyway; Maggs is the only one whose spot I am worried about past 2004...provided JR keeps expanding the budget as we are (hopefully) start racking up pennants. Seriously, I only care about Diaz, Valenzula, Fernandez, Almonte, Munoz, Miles, Webster, Ring, Honel, Malone, Ulacia, Stumm, Barcelo and maybe a few others like fan favorite Bullard or West, Gonzalez, Rogowski, etc. THAT'S it. The rest can be taken care of with successful DRAFTING/minor trades IMO. No need to lose your sleep over it...unless you are a AA or AAA manager, that is I say f*ck the "depth" and "needs" (and Baseball Prospectus Alert Amercia's with them!) and whatever, and start picking the players with highest ceiling no matter how raw. "Defensive catchers" and "solid outfielders/arms" don't make WS-caliber teams. No- Frank Thomases, Pedro Martinezes and Magglio Ordonez's do. What good are 15 solid 4-5th spot-type pitchers sitting between AA and AAA if you don't have 1-2-3 inning-eating starters (liek Mulder-Zito-Hudson or Priot-Wood-Clement) that will bring you to the promised land? What good is having 4 infielders rated within TOP 100 if none of them can be as good as Soriano or Tejada? Granted, Sox have had a remarkably efficient farm system in the last decade or so (Thomas, Ventura, healthy Fernandez, Alvarez, healthy Bere, healthy Baldwin, McDowell, Lee, Maggs, Olivo, Borchard, Rauch, Wells, Fogg, Garland, Buerhle, Rowand, Malone, Diaz, Wright, Webster, Honel, Barcelo, Crede, Durham, Valenzula, Valentine, Kane, Almonte, Munoz, Stumm, etc are all either All-Stars, possible AS's or just solid ML starting material...amazing really), but it takes BOTH capable and expensive vets and young talented blood to make it work, and lately Sox had either former (97-98) or latter (99-02) and almost never both, at least not to the degree that it could be THIS upcoming year.

So what did you think of the Sox, then? You know, The Little UNDER .500 Team That Could... That statement is so rediculous, I am not even going to dignify it with a reply. Getting 4 great prospects that started producing almost immediately (even the disasterously unlucky Barcelo was stellar in 2000) for 5 overpaid vets is every GM's dream; the fact that the Sox only had "one divisional title" had more to do with this organization's overall ineptitude and cheapness, with the lack of fans (we averaged half a stadium BEFORE the WFT), torrent of injuries in 2001 and the simple fact that you can't possibly expect WS appearances every year when you are rebuilding and your payroll is under 45 mill... NOT with that particular trade's merits. If you had seen a single game that year, you'd know that Sox had virtually NO chance and that the number 3 (remember we trailed the Tribe by only 3 games in late July 2001, too...lol) is GROSSELY misleading. Cleveland may not have had the HOF pitching, but they scored near 1000 runs that year, and OUR pitching was NOTHING to write home about either. I guess I can't PROVE to you with 100% certainty that Sox weren't going to make it, but I feel highly positive that they wouldn't. It's specualtion at this point. And Yankees, Oriols and Marlins were DAMN good teams BTW. Wright, Nagy and Hershiser outstanding and clutch during playoffs last time I recall, to say nothign of their line-up and the fact that Tribe was making their SECOND straight WS appearance, and would run away witha division in the next 3 out of 4 years. We dumped 10's of millions (if you look beyond '97) of OLD and severely DECLINGING and OVERRATED players if anything else. The Rebuilding (you know, the one that broughts us Maggs, Lee, Jimenez, Olivo, Buehrle, Wells, Garland, Wright, Rauch, Valentin, Crede, Rowand, Konerko, Marte and Burhle, not to mention Barcelo, Foulke, Howry and even Caruso) phase of which Sox were./are enjoying the fuits in 2000, 01, 02 and, more importantly NOW, might not have taken place AT ALL were Darwin, Alvarez, Guilen, Hernandez and Fernandez were allowed to stay for 98-99 seasons, IMO. Ventura and Belle would have still left in 98 and we'd be stuck with Norton, Snopek, Fabregas and Co. Romanticizing the "WFT tragedy"and glossing over the franchise disarray of the late 90's is a little short-sighted or disingenuous. End of rant. OT: Hey, I got kicked out of WSI in 01', too. Also ostensibly for arguing with Randar and FWC bmr31 is an obnoxious ignoramus, though, and I'd take rangar's, kermit's or idseer's side anytime when he/she is concerned.

Listen, season-ending trades suck sometimes and fans do suffer, but, common, if you think Danny Darwin-led team was going to catch the Indians powerhouse (that eventually was 2 outs away from winning the friggin' championshiop!) that year, I have a nice bridge...Hawk is a FRANCHISE announcer, but so what? He is a funny and insighful commentator (I don't think anyone who praised Steve Stone can contest that; he may not have the academic vocabulary down, but this aint academia-land), so what else do you want? For him to take JR to task? Even our GM's can't do that, FCOL. I admit I used to dislike Hawk in the beginning 'cause in his tone and demeanor he sounded "different"--like a coach rather than a commentator. Now I like him for precisely the reasons I didn't before. Facts of WF Trade: -Barcelo: before injuries an amazing , Rauch-esque prospect .............................. -Foulke: self-explanatory. Might be a HOF player in 8-10 years if he improves his slider. ...............................-Howry: before injury, one of the 10 best relievers in the game. ...............................-Caruso: SS hit .306, stole 25 bases and finished 3rd in a rookie of the year voting; well-documented horrible work ethic and drug intake hampered his progress long before he even reached the bigs. Could have been Erstad Lite with better speed. Shame. (-Ken Vining: very good AAA pitcher who pitched in the bigs -Gary Majewski: good chance he makes the bigs someday.) Darwin, Ozzie Guillen and Alvarez had done nothing since they left the Sox and Fernanadez was done by 1998. And those pitchers were making a pretty buck, too. Also, no way Sox reach playoffs in 2000 without Foulke, Howry and Barcelo, IMO. ETA: Ron Santo over Joh Rooney as the best radio announcer? I. Don't.Think.So.

So was it Stairway to Heaven or Over the Hills or something? It was Zeppelin-like, but not in fact Zeppelin. I know because I had received a bootlegged LZ CD (some 250 songs in it not counting the artwork) and the song isn't on there. Ditto Rush. It might be the Who but the voice doesn't match. In any case, it's either you remember EXACTLY what I am talking about (it was a funny commercial, but to be honest Rock station paid for 2 or 3 different ones that year, including a generic one that had a montage of many bands like Van Halen and Aerosmith and so on...so it might have gotten all mixed up in the mind since then) , including the name of the perfomer, or it's back to the starting point.

I doubt it; it wasn't so much a rock song as a tiny excerpt, a vocal highlight considering that the commerical only ran about 20 seconds total. Thanks regardless.

It's like the thread has fallen on deaf ears. I am officially hurt.

The bottomline is, he is a BORING and CRANKY (not "old-fashioned" fella from the South like Hawk; I mean real bitter) person and that's why he is a mediocre announcer at best, IMO. Whereas Hawk is funny AND knowledgeable and just has a great time out there in his older (I bet Hawk has more fun at 65 than many people at 35) age. The reason wh he treats DJ like a "4-year-old" is because the latter sometimes BEHAVES like one; for a first-time major sports announcer, DJ did surprisingly little homework, which is fine when you are Bob Costas with photographic memory and decades worth of passionate observation, but when you are a young retiring player (35 was he?), it won't get it done. I am surprised Hawk didn't snap at ALL when DJ deviated from planned commentary and ad-libbed it...He IS better now though, I agree. In fact, some of the resulting "bloopers" are extremely funny and spontaneous as I already mentioned. I can't believe noone remembers the "boner" commernt. That's HOF broadcasting right there

A-friggin'-men. The "boner" one is one of the greatest evah cnsidering HOW it was said and reacted to. There must have bee others fo sho'. I forgot about Joe Carter down at the Urinal. Here is typical exchange: JC: ...and Laaaance Berkman reaches the first rase. CC: that's "first base... JC...and Laaaacne Berkman beaches the first baaaase. The guy is a clown. A loveable one. Which is why he fits in so well at the Urinal.

I contantly hear about Hawk being a homer...well, color me stupid but I truly feel that even though he clearly roots for the Sox (Sox broadcaster, not a national one afterall), he as twice as knowledgeable as Steve Stoone And Chip Carey COMBINED. When Chip is raggin on the Cubs/praising the oppostion, it feels forced and out of place as though he 1) first subtly puts the oppositon down (like, say, dissing John Garland's 2000 campaign in 2001 before remembering how much he has improved since) only to "bring them up" and 2) goes through the motion criticizing the Cubbies without really finding any specific faults as though saying "here, kids, as you can see I am fair&balanced". He is a TRUE and blind homer if you ask me...The problem is, the viewer suffers as he has no knowledge of the game WHATSOEVER. Steve Stone? He knows the game, but too much of a bitter ex-player/ex-Cubbie to let true emotions and insights surface. Hawk? He will be waxing poetic about the virtues of Ichiro or Tejada; he also talks about players past (his anecdotes are hilarious AND instructive). I actually see him praise the opposition nearly as much as the Sox (count for yourself if you don't believe me)==and you know he LURVES him some Sockies. And he does it in a sponteneous but intelligent way, not the backhanded , through-the-teeth one like certain somebody on the North Side...Overall, a very classy (in the redneck sort of way) and, more importantly, ENTERTAINING franchise announcer. None of that boring and psuedo insightful Vin Scully pomposity. DJ? He is barely tolerable, but with Hawk he doesn't need to be anything but a nodder, to say nothing of his SPECTACULARLY hilarious foot-in-mouth-isms. DJ-Hawk 2002 Klassic: -Hawk: [uses an old-school language to describe a perfectly innocent event as in the vein of "gay spirits", etc] -DJ: Hawk, you said "boner"....... -[Hawk says nothing for literally minutes during which time I felt worried about DJ's health because it was obvious Hawk wanted to kill him...]] It was so unexpected I was laughing for DAYS afterwards. Seriously you HAD to have heard/seen it...Does anyone remember

(frequent running 97.9 FM television ad circa 99...and not the one where David Lee Roth is doing his wire act in the beginnin'...the other one) 1. Couple nighting it up at the opera. 2. The girlie is pseudo-transfixed while the Joe is bored; the fat lady singing in a horned helmet doesn't interest him as much as, say, baseball- no, say again, classic ROCK would... 3. He has an epithany whereby the fat lady starts riffing on the guitar and the Zeppelin/Rush-like screamer (from a song which I am desperate to know) rips. I don't remember if it';s followed by another one or not, but the "day-dreaming" ends abruptly (as it always does in lame commercials), with snobby opera patrons looking on the now embarassed dude* who's apparently been flipping out in the meantime. *- It's safe to assume that he won't be getting none cuz she looked PISSED.

I am alive... ...but very badly wounded...

**gunshot***

Ppppppllleeeeeeaaaaaasssssseeeeeeee..........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't understand...I need to know!

Common, any rock-n'roll aficionados here?

And hockey is a feet-dominated sport? Learn something new every day. Many people don't like hockey because of the geo-cultural conditioning and habits; Brazilians couldn't give a sh*t about it in the same way Iceland-ites don't care about beach volleyball. Plus, one often chooses the same sport simply because their parents did and their parents did...As understandeable, not to mention common, as this phenomenon is, I find it limiting and just plain boring. I don't care about bolwing, pool and ping-pong and all sort of arcades (indoor non-team sports suck!), but then again I love soccer, hockey, tennis and baseball. Racial and/or national diversity is not the last reason why I love them. There.

whose voice/song is heard during one of the old (we are talking 3 years ago... and not the Van Halen montage one) television ads for a rock radio station (97.9?) which features some dorky dude and his date listening snobbily to the ol' opera cliche (a fat lady singing in a Viking outfit, lol) when one of them has a rock-n-roll vision tranform the stage into a concert for a brief moment, with a Zeppelin-esque primal scream piercing through...before reverting back to reality. It's been bugging me for a while. Help me out. Pleas

That's no way for a hot chick to be treatin' D-Jim & Manos. Them's two is de real deal, see. Unless you meant "oooh, we, like, have two amazing studs up the middle...yay!".