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QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:54 PM) If the White Sox are an example to follow, that's not exactly true anymore either. Seems to me that in the past 10 years, the Sox have had several front of the rotation starters but only had one above average 2B during that entire time frame in Tadahito Iguchi. People saying that it's easy or that it's not as important have yet to really win me over with that argument. Frankly, if Semien is dealt, the Sox are looking at Carlos Sanchez and Micah Johnson as the internal candidates at 2B. Those two were both less than impressive at both AAA and the MLB, depending on where either ended up. All we can say at this point is we'll see. I think the Sox are the exception to the rule. They have had a awful record developing hitters of any postion not even poor but awful.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:49 PM) There aren't that many good infielders out there in general. They had it filled, they drafted a college SS that could not stick at SS, tried him at third and then settled him in at second. He hit really well through the minors and in his rookie season, so it seemed to be an issue that was not an issue. Then he regressed and they waited for him to rebound before cutting ties with an asset that had been very valuable that had lost all of its value. We don't know who it is, but we have a pretty good idea that its going to be Sanchez to start the season unless Alexei is dealt. I still think they will start johnson there, unless he totally fails in ST.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:49 PM) Lol, nope. It is funny. It's not often we hear that a guy may benefit from getting away from Don Cooper. True. however, no one coach can help everyone. Cooper does have an abrasive personality. I'm sure that rubs some players the wrong way. Can't help a person if he won't listen to you.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:47 PM) Yup, I have no interest whatsoever in Masterson I think both will rebound from different injury scenarios. However, I think Masterson will be cheaper.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:43 PM) If 2B were so easy to find, there would be a ton of really good ones out there. That's not the case. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...=&players=0 There are maybe 8 or 9 guys on there that I think you could safely say are very good. It's impossible to deny that the Sox have depth at the position, but if it were that easy to fill, we'd know who it was moving forward and they wouldn't have had a blackhole there over the last 5 years. I'm not sure if the comments were that it was easy. I think it was that the 2B/utility role is easier to fill and not as important as a top of the rotation starter.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:43 PM) No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that defense isn't factored into WAR -- it IS factored into WAR. It's just that the "positional adjustment" piece of WAR is based on offense. UZR/DRS are converted to runs saved and factored into WAR separately from total offense. Ok. that makes more sense in my interpretation of WAR as well. while I'm still not sold on it, it makes a better attempt this way.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:37 PM) I like the idea of a Masterson-type of guy, but he lost so much velocity, it's harder see him bouncing back. I think much of the velocity was due to injury. He injured his knee and he should come back from that pretty well. You can't put much behind a pitch without the strong base.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:34 PM) Well, the positional adjustments aren't based on defense, they're based on mean offensive value. So really what it's saying is that it's just as hard to find a good hitting 3B as it is to find a good hitting 2B, which "feels" weird because 3Bs were all like Vinny Castilla during the steroid era, but when you look around the league, seems more normal. The defensive contributions are then thrown on top, and those vary greatly because of the different types of plays each makes, as you alluded to. Makes senseand that could be true as defense is a big part of 3B so good hitters who can't play good D (carlos Lee) aren't kept at third. But I still see it as a major deficiency in WAR because it really doesn't take defense into consideration. So the best that WAR does is compare offense at the same position.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:22 PM) A lot of people don't realize that the WAR positional adjustment for 2B is identical to 3B. I know a lot people don't see any value in WAR, but I do think it's interesting that the sabermetric community considers those positions equally important and the talent equally rare. I think that is deficiency in the WAR calculation then. It is not as rare to find a good defensive 2B as a good 3B. They may be equal as far as run prevention as the 2B is more instrumental in double plays as such but finding a good #B is harder.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:19 PM) Jacksquat? Lawrie has been a much better player to this point than Donaldson was at the same point in his career. I think it's more that he is cost controlled for a long er period of time as well. Plus Beane got a really good prospect with him. I'ts more that the entire package of players the a's received was better long term than Donaldson

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 03:14 PM) Makes it difficult when they have the same initials. Good point. Shields was easier to spell and takes less time with my limited typing skills.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 02:59 PM) So basically trading for Samardzija makes sense if Billy Beane forgets to call 28 other teams and gives him to us for a huge discount. If you "fully expect the white sox to make a run at signing him to an extension", why on Earth would you give up anything in a trade for that guy unless you have a competitive roster this year? Again hitting my point, this makes no sense. If were going to blow 9 figures on a pitcher, just go add Shields. Shields is not the pitcher that JS is. Having him at the top of the rotation makes the Sox a much better team. I like shields but he will command too many years at his age. If the sox could get shields on a 3 year deal, i would agree with you.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) Edit : You also used LaRoches' last 3 seasons of OPS but used Moss last 2 then one from 2009 when he was 25 and had 385 AB's had a .304 OBP and .668 OPS instead of his age 28 season when he was clearly a much improved hitter who had a .358 OBP and .954 OPS because he only had 265 AB's. I did that because those the only times he played a substantial number of mlb games. In all of the other seasons he barely played in the mlb, which is one of the reason i would pick LaRoche over him. If you average out his career, he averages only 78 games per season which is why i only looked at his full seasons and one of those was only 133 games.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 02:52 PM) Marcus Semien for 1 year of Jeff Samardzija continues to make no sense for the White Sox. It makes us slightly worse next year most likely in the lineup (Sanchez becomes your full time 2b, have to go sign a utility infielder just to back up Gillaspie), which is even worse in a way than Trading Anderson since trading for Samardzija is such an "all in on 2015" move. I think johnson is your leader for the second base job even if nothing else happens with the other player.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 02:05 PM) They are similar offensive players but I will take age 31 ,32 seasons over age 36,37 seasons plus money saved over the 2 years. Having Moss would've also meant we are officially done with Viciedo . For two years, I think LaRoche is the safer bet. More consistent over the years. If it was 4 years or so, I would agree with you.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 12:33 PM) Yet Beane is playing hardball with us. At least that's the feeling I get. Same power as LaRoche 5 years younger. Plays the outfield which is more important than a backup 1st baseman. Probably would've saved more than $10M over the next 2 yrs LaRoche will be signed at an advanced baseball age. Takes a lot of walks also like LaRoche does. Moss eligible for free agency in 2017 so same time LaRoche contract ends. I like LaRoche better. Moss has really only had 3 full seasons for various reasons with OPS at 668,859 and 772. LaRoche has many more seasons and his last 3 were 853, 735 and 817. For the next 2 years I like LaRoche better.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 01:46 PM) Really the only place we are differing is I don't think the Sox get Shark long term. Guess we'll have to wait how it all plays out. Again. That is the fun of the off season. No matter what the deals is 1/2 of soxtalk will like it. The other half will complain. There will be an entire thread of justifications on each side.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 01:08 PM) Well I don't But really, I just want it resolved so we can figure out how the A's take way too much from the White Sox again while they seemingly give away guys like Donaldson and Moss to the opposition for jacksquat. Quality starting pitching is a premium.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 01:13 PM) I'm all for a guy like Shark but not for 1 year. Giving up 2 decent prospects is like 10 yrs or more of control for 1 yr. and JS would have to be extremely good to outproduce productive bench players who might even eventually be starters that you control for a much longer period of time and McCarthy. Decent prospects don't typically amount to much in the MLB. I really haven't seen anything that really makes me think the sox will miss Semien or Sanchez compared to a proven MLB pitcher. They could be decent bench players or a starter in the Beckham mold, but I think those players would be worth the chance of getting JS long term. Besides as I've said I think Rameirez is going to be the center piece of any trade. The A's really don't need Semien or Sanchez. They have better utility/borderline starting prospects.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 12:58 PM) I have been advocating increasing the talent level also. Having 2 or 3 1.5-2.0 WAR utility players adds great value to a team knowing that in case of injury you have quality back ups. Every trade does not have to be a blockbuster. McCarthy would be just fine ,if we could get him, while we see how Rodon , Bassit, etc. develop . The Sox may want to compete this year but it shouldn't be at the expense of finding out what our very inexpensive prospects will become. No, but if you have the opportunity to acquire a really good dependable starting pitcher, he is worth more than all of those utility players. He will not only produce more but also save the team from over using the lower end of the bullpen. McCarthy, even if healthy will tax the bullpen. You don't give up the farm for JS but you do what you can to acquire him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 12:56 PM) The thing that scares me is the Sox are said to be in love with Micah Johnson at 2B. Get a new questionable defensive SS with him, and that up the middle defense, the one decent thing about the White Sox defensively, will become pretty bad. Do you blow off your defense 162 games for the 31 or 32 games Samardjia pitches? They would really need to get a SS who was a plus defensively. I agree. If the trade goes down, they need to look for that really good defensive SS. But with what they gain instarting pitching, I think it's worth it.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 12:52 PM) Then sign Scherzer. I find it hard to believe that Samardzija wouldn't at least get 6/$130 on the open market, and frankly Scherzer isn't going to cost that much more and then you don't have to give up a player with a name for him. I'll be done now. I just don't think Semien is the right guy for this franchise to give up. I think when it's all said and done. JS will not get the same deal that Scherzer will. If it was even, I would agree but I don't think it will be. Some of it depends on who is traded of course. I'm fine with Rameirez going. I think he is one of the better SS around but for a quality starting pitcher, I would do it everytime.

QUOTE (Bigsoxhurt35 @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 12:49 PM) @philgrogers: Jeff Samardzija-Alexei Ramirez deal makes sense for both teams, provided A's have postseason aspirations. @philgrogers: Not sure White Sox give up Tim Anderson in possible Samardzija rental but could piece SS together in 2015 to develop Anderson in AA/AAA. I need to go home. Everything I've said agrees with Phil Rogers. I'm in a deep state of depression.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 12:39 PM) Then sign Brandon McCarthy. He's slightly inferior and doesn't anything other than money. Those positions may be "easy" to fill but the Sox have struggled filling them for 5+ years now. Their backup plan for LF and RF right now is seemingly a guy who has a sub .300 OBP for his career and has never been regarded as good defensively. If Semien goes, their plan at 2B is a guy whose role on an MLB team should be that of a utility player or a player who has dealt with injuries seemingly every year of his career thus far. Hell, even their 3B is mediocre defensively and absolutely brutal against lefties. Are you telling me that you couldn't see their current options failing and burning the Sox because they have a lack of depth again? At the very least, we know Semien is going to be average to slightly below average at the plate, and I think there's a strong chance he's way better than that. Trading a talented kid because the positions he plays are "easy to fill" is the reason the Sox haven't made the playoffs in 6 years and have only done so twice in the last 15 years. He is more than slightly inferior, especially considering the health issues. JS has been in the 200 inning range every year as a starter. If you sign McCarthy you better have quality starters waiting.

QUOTE (SnB @ Dec 8, 2014 -> 07:43 AM) Isn't that the entire for profit college industry? Unfortunately, it's not just for profits. Many state universities will accept are larger number of questionably qualified students as freshman, knowing many will drop out for a number of reasons. 1. It brings in extra tuition and freshman classes are big lectures with TA lab sections where grad students make alot less than the tuition. 2. It makes the university look good for the state and thus can get more dollars from the state based on the Fall credit hour count. 3. It makes the university and state look good because "they didn't just look at grades and exam scores" when they admitted students.