whitesoxfan101

Obviously Jenks deserves blame for blowing it, but he shouldn't have had to pitch yesterday, and today if Vasquez AND Cotts weren't so fishing awful, maybe Jenks wouldn't have been needed today either. The problem remains the pitching, and to be honest I can't blame Ozzie all that much since it seems like in big spots, no matter who is out there seems to figure out a way to suck.

First of all, he was due to blow one (he's only blown 2 all year now). But more importantly, this was Jenks 3rd straight day out there, with yesterday having to use him when we scored 13 and today putting him in a game where we scored 7, yet only led by 1. If we could have held the O's to, hell 8 runs in yesterday's game, maybe Bobby has better stuff and gets it done today. Or maybe if Javy or our setup men weren't spiff today we still don't need Bobby today. Sure it's great we almost swept this series, but it was still all about offense and our spiffty pitching hasn't changed, the only thing that did was our opponent. DO SOMETHING, make a trade, take somebody out of the rotation, just for the love of God anything because I want a chance to make the playoffs.

QUOTE(LosMediasBlancas @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 10:14 AM) "...boy I'll tell you, Jose Valentin is the best and most exciting base runner I've ever seen and I've been in the game a looooong time"--Hawk Still my all time favorite. Nah, not even close. Jose has been one of the best baserunners in baseball ever since he first came up, so that statement has some merit despite being over the top. Hawk has said spiff FAR more overexaggerated and/or dumb than that.

You guys are right about the money not letting it happen, however I'd rather see Javy be a valuable bullpen arm than a spiff starter, and plus in that senario we are getting a better return on our investment. Too bad the organization will never see it that way.

Only way a move is going to be made is if we trade Vasquez or Garcia for a MAJOR boost in the bullpen and some other nice piece in return. Otherwise, I'd be surprised to see us make a move. And a move isn't as badly needed as people think IMO, the offense is fine, the defense (except with Mack in CF, where he should only be once in a rare while to spell BA) is fine....the issue is the rotation, and B-Mac should be in it. My hope is we trade Vasquez for a setup man, move B-Mac into the rotation, and that Buehrle realizes he's pretty good (which he will IMO). That would give us 4 starters in Buehrle, Count, Garland, and B-Mac who don't suck and Freddy as a 5 isn't bad IMO, plus it bolsters the pen. Just my $0.02.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 10:29 AM) That doesn't really make sense to me. Is Vazquez going to do better starting a couple times a month and pitching out of the pen a couple times a month? Is BMac? I can't see that working. At some point, guys need to have some sort of role defined. Javy makes a start, doesn't pitch out of the bullpen because he's resting after the start for a few days, then winds up unneeded for the next week, and ends up going 12 days between starts? I doubt that would work for anyone in baseball. Your accurate with everyday you say, however something has to be done with Javy or Garcia, we can't just keep sending them out there and dying (and yes, I know Buehrle has been bad, but he's had bad stretches before and has bounced back, so I have faith in him at least).

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 10:26 AM) So... you guys want Anderson to play 162 games a year, then? Who is his sub if not Mack? I am not saying Mack should play every other day out there, but he'll need to spell Anderson on occasion, unless you want Gload or Ozuna or Pods out there. If Mack is in center once every 10 days to 2 weeks to give Anderson a blow, I can live with it. But that is not how we are doing it, at all.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 10:25 AM) Cintron was ungodly bad yesterday, by the way. Not really anything to do with the topic, I just wanted to point that out. I'm aware of it. Other than Gload for Konerko at 1B (which never happens except late in games) and Mack for Pods in LF, we lose A LOT on defense anytime we play any of the reserves, which is the reason why I wish we'd play the everyday guys as much as possible (although I'd like to see Mack in LF a lot more....)

QUOTE(BigSqwert @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 10:20 AM) You are preaching to the choir. He has been completely misused. He should play twice a week, one game to rest Pods and one game to rest Dye. Pablo should only sub Crede and pinch run. Agreed on all counts except Dye doesn't need 1 day a week off, I'd say more like a day every 10 days to 2 weeks he needs off. But anyways, your right on track and that is how the rotation SHOULD go. Hell, I'd even be willing to give Uribe a few more days off to get Cintron in at SS and let Ozuna take Gooch's spot at 2B on Gooch's off days if we're that desperate to keep everybody playing.

QUOTE(LVSoxFan @ Jul 20, 2006 -> 10:16 AM) I realize I may get crucified by the ton of more baseball-knowledgeable people here, but I had this crazy idea last night after Javy tanked yet another game with the Big Inning. I think we can all agree that Javy has the "stuff," but is just mentally askew. He looked damn good for five innings last night and then bam, bam, bam! Next thing we know, a grand-slam later, we're down 5-2. BTW, who thought we would come back after that? Me neither. So in a nutshell: Javy's good for a few innings, can even be lights-out, but just can't pull off entire games. Sooo... Why not move Javy to the pen for middle relief and make McCarthy the fifth starter? A switcheroo. It's either really brilliant or really flawed as an idea. I'm sure you're going to tell me which one, LOL. Discuss! I've seen much dumber ideas than this on the boards before. I'd be willing to give it a shot, and it is true that Javy with his stuff could in theory be a damn good relief guy that only throws 1 or 2 innings an appearance, and it's also true that B-Mac has the ability to be a VERY good starter.

I think it's pretty clear this guy CAN NOT play CF....however I think it's also clear that he can be a valuable player. So my question to Ozzie (especially with Pablo knicked up) is, why the hell don't we put Mack in left and lead him off when Pods needs a day off? Mack actually can play a decent LF defensively (sure as hell better than Pods), he gives quality at bats, has adequate speed, and his .310 average and .394 OBP are both better than Pods, who isn't exactly stealing a ton of bases these days anyways (and hell, Ozuna has sucked on steals all year). Combine this with the fact that Anderson is the only guy on our team that can play CF on defense and actually hits righties better than he does lefties, and it's clear BA should be in CF hitting 9th everyday, and that if Mack is to play, he should be in left while Ozuna should be strictly an infielder (as we've seen when he does play LF). If this is so obvious to me and many Sox fans out there, why isn't it to Ozzie?

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:02 PM) You suggested trading him for nothing, that's what I'm shooting down here. If you're going to trade Vazquez it has to be for a solid bullpen arm who can pitch the 8th inning for you with his right arm. Well, I personally think he's been pitching much better than his ERA suggests over the past month but whatever. I guess you'd be happy with Riske or Tracey pitching the 8th every night. Realistically, you could get a good setup man for Vasquez, the suggestion of for nothing is due to my anger at him. If your pen is Cotts, Thornton, Jenks, Riske, (insert return man in trade here), and Tracey, your pen is still pretty damn good. And righties only hit .213 against Thornton (who has a respectable 1.21 WHIP), you could freaking use him as a setup man (or somebody you get in a trade) and Cotts as the LOOGY if you had to. I'd rather see that and B-Mac in Javy's rotation spot. QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 09:04 PM) Yep, seems like you have a good amount of evidence to back this claim up too. From what I've seen from people who I consider Sox fans, they're worried about the starting pitching more than anything. Well most Sox fans I've seen are just plain freaking out about everything right now.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:59 PM) Who exactly is everybody? Maybe I'm just missing something here but I havn't seen anything of late ripping the pen's performance outside of Clifford. 90 percent of Sox fans, congrats on not being dumb if your in the 10 percent that realizes this team's sole problem is the terrible starting pitching.

Losing B-Mac from the pen isn't nearly the disaster people think. He's been decent, but an ERA in the 4's all year out of the pen isn't irreplaceable. The big difference in this pen from last year is still losing the amazing production we got from Cliff and from Dustin for the first 3 months plus, and those 2 things can't be replaced.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:55 PM) Every trade scenario people suggest, it always includes things about how bad our bullpen is, etc. Everybody thinks we need bullpen help and a CF, it's a fun myth, just like Ozzieball was a fun myth last year. This team's sole problem is starting pitching, and is why I'm so insistent on Javy having to go, since he is the weakest link with a long history of being a mental midget.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:52 PM) The pen would be a major issue if your "scenerio" actually took place. Well what do you suggest? Leave the rotation as it is, have it be bad, AND expose the underbelly of the pen...or get rid of our worst starter Vasquez, put B-Mac in the rotation, and see how using Thornton, Cotts, Jenks, and Riske in the big spots works. Something with the pitching rotation has to change, or we WILL NOT make the playoffs. Javy is a inconsistent loser and he's shown it his whole career. He has to go, at least with Freddy he's been successful in the past, Javy has always been a .500 pitcher and always will be. And that B-Mac guy is pretty good when he starts. Plus, who's to say we can't get a decent arm for the pen for Vasquez? I think we can.

QUOTE(WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:47 PM) The people who complain about hawk need to get MLB extra innings for a little bit. Yes he's a homer, but he knows baseball and he shows enthusiasm. I got MLB extra innings free for about a week, and some of the guys were downright awful. Baltimore's guys were the worst, they acted the same every play no matter who made it or what happened. I know people will kill me for this, but one of my favorite baseball announcers is John Sterling. I hate the f***ing Yankees, but the guy shows enthusiasm. The fact that most announcers suck (which is true) doesn't make Hawk any better.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jul 19, 2006 -> 08:49 PM) And then we have no righty setup man unless you trust Riske to fill the role which he's failed at in recent years your pen will go to s***. Our pen isn't 1/10th the issue our rotation is right now. How many leads has our pen had to blow? Not many, since the starters (especially Javy) get f***ed up. Javy has to go, and I don't GAF if it hurts the bullpen. Maybe if our starters would go 6 or 7 and only give up 2 or 3 runs, the pen wouldn't be exposed so much.

If Vasquez is not traded, we will not make the playoffs, period. You can't have a guy with no balls pitching 1/5 of the games and expect to go anywhere. He's a waste and must go, even if we get nothing back. B-Mac to the rotation, Vasquez to somewhere other than here.

How about this? If you don't like it, don't watch local tv news and don't listen to sports radio. It's not that hard a task, and you might enjoy the Sox more by worrying about them and not about how much some idiot talks about our team.

The argument of best team in baseball is pointless. Like every year, we will find out in the last week of October who the best team in baseball actually is.

Buehrle is the last guy innings would catch up to. He's throwing the same stuff he always has, it's just EVERYTHING he throws these days is up in the strikezone, and until he gets the ball down, he will struggle. However Buehrle IMO will find his control, get the ball down, and get back to being who he is, he's just not a bad pitcher, I refuse to believe he suddenly turned into one.

First of all, I kept quiet of Jon even during the bad times, actually showing restraint, which I never do for the most part. Second, I'm not NEARLY as pissed at Freddy as I am Vasquez. Freddy simply has nothing in terms of stuff these days, if you gave Freddy the stuff Vasquez has, the dude would still be a stud pitcher. It's just hard to throw an 87 fastball without pinpoint control and fool anybody.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:10 PM) The only guy on our staff that Im dead set against right now is Vazquez. He's a headcase just like Zambrano except he can't pitch nearly as good. When you have a guy losing his mind as soon as he makes 1 mistake thats a serious problem. Agreed, and Freddy has a much better history and pedagree for success than Vasquez does. He really hasn't been much to write home about since he left Montreal, whereas Freddy has a long history of being damn good. I worry a ton about Freddy since he has a Greg Maddux fastball, but at least he has a history of success and gives me hope he could turn it around. Vasquez is what he is, he'll make people drool with his stuff and some great games, but he's really a .500 pitcher who is inconsistent and a mental midget.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 10:09 PM) The reason Garland received all of the criticism is because he had one really good year, signed a big contract and then goes and starts off the year poorly. Buehrle has been a number 1-2 starter for us year in and year out, Freddy has proven himself to be a real good pitcher in his career and as for Javy he was actually having a real solid season until basically his last 5 starts and he also has had more than one real good season in his career(in the national league though). Jon has a great year after many average years, signs a big contract and just comes out of the gate pitching horrible. When that happens you're going to alienate some fans. I could see the hate since he was a suckfest early on, but really if this year had gone according to plan with the staff, Jon is our 5 starter, or maybe our 4 ahead of Vasquez. He's paid a lot, but it costs a lot for pitching right now, even a good 4 guy like Garland. He's overpaid, but all pitching worth a damn (and some not worth a damn) is. I could see why people were hating on Garland, however most (a few exceptions, like yourself) simply refuse to give him credit, even when he is pitching well.