Balta1701

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 05:30 PM) I thought VMart was speculated to get 18-20M annually and Headley 12-15M annually? Or has that changed? I'd expect Martinez to push for something in the range of 4/$60 (maybe not getting it?) and Headley to push 5/$75, maybe more. The Yankees are supposed to be in on Headley, so it's going to cost a fortune to "outbid" for his services.

QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 05:16 PM) Victor alone does not make the Sox a contender and that's my point. Victor's annual salary could buy the Sox three good bullpen arms that, IMO, will do more for the Sox in 2015 than one aging Victor Martinez. Another way to look at it is Victor's salary could buy the Sox Chase Headley and one good arm for a bullpen that desperately needs attention. Now the Sox have upgraded the lineup, the defense and the bullpen. I'd much prefer to fill the holes with overall good quality than fill one hole with perceived great quality and skimp on the other holes. Besides. I like the idea of 4 rotating outfielders through the DH position to keep legs fresh and a 36 year old VMart does not fit the mold. I also doubt very seriously that VMart would perform up to the value of his contract. A 36 year old is going to get paid based on his past performance and not his future performance. Just my two cents and opinion is all. Although I don't like the Martinez option...I'd very much prefer Martinez to Headley (and I think Headley is going to get a lot more than Martinez).

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 04:57 PM) So when do you contend ? How do you fill holes by doing nothing or spending on even riskier FA's or trading for the same types. They all have their baggage whether its, injuries or coming off bad seasons , or age. Get VMart , see if you can pry Michael Saunders from Seattle sign a starter and a closer put Bassitt in the pen or let him and Rodon start . VMart, fixed bullpen and a cheap Saunders seems doable . If you skimp anywhere let it be the starting pitching and look to build value with Danks, Noesi and Bassitt. So your starting rotation is the 2 solid lefties, Noesi, Danks, and Bassitt, and you're telling me you think you have a competitive roster? Because I don't. If you're going to sign Martinez for a huge price, you better go into the season with a rotation that can win the division, because signing Martinez and going with a rotation like that sounds like wasting Martinez's probably best remaining season to me.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 04:56 PM) Signing cheaper players who were injured or released is often being cheap. I don't think they are thinking cheap this offseason. I will put it another way. Signing Victor is an effort to win. Signing someone like Butler who will no be cheap but cheaper I MO would be the proverbial spending money to spend money. Butler isn't going to help the White Sox win. You're right with the bolded. Neither Jeff Keppinger nor Scott Downs were those. Both of them were free agents in their 30s, not guys who were released, but instead guys whose contracts were up and who were paid market value.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 04:34 PM) They have had a lot of guys not perform. Keppinger, Downs, Belisario, and Paulino was a total waste of about $22 million. But out of those, only 2 of them were what you just said was the waste of money - trying to be cheap. Keppinger was bought coming off a career year under the assumption that guys who don't strike out a lot don't fall off a cliff in their 30s (where have I heard that recently)?. Downs was a veteran brought in for fair money under the assumption that guys in their late 30s don't fall off a cliff when they have certain projectable skills. Both of those guys were guys brought in at fair market value to fill an immediate need. Belisario and Paulino was trying to be cheap and bring in guys who could improve, and yes, they did not work, while on the other hand Putnam and Noesi did. And just to note, out of the 4 guys you listed, the majority of the money was taken up by the veteran guys brought in for fair market value to be immediate contributors.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 04:23 PM) He was awful the first 2 months on 2013 after missing 2012. He hit .361/.413/.500 the second half of 2013. I think he is a good bet to put up a 125 or higherwRC+ the next couple of years. Signing guys like Butler is being cheap which often gets expensive. This certainly hasn't been the White Sox's problem the last 5+ years, it's been expensive guys who don't perform.

QUOTE (Charlie Haeger's Knuckles @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 04:11 PM) His "declining veteran numbers" are still leagues better than the Sox production at the position over the previous 2 seasons. Based on fangraphs estimated value and his contract, if AZ sends along half his salary, it is a very worthwhile upgrade over the Sox current AAAA catcher "logjam" So what valuable piece are the white sox giving up in exchange for both the player and $20 million over 3 years?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 03:49 PM) I would agree with this, especially when you consider the contract saving.s Butler would make more sense if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that we could find a LH hitting corner OF good enough to hit 4th or 5th in this lineup somewhere.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 03:38 PM) Considering he had his finest season at 35 I wouldn't put much into what typically happens. He was down the first half of 2013 after missing 2012 but has been on fire the last year and a half. Sure there is risk. But this gamble makes sense as long as it doesn't go crazy. What is going crazy to you?

QUOTE (Lillian @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 03:28 PM) I started to look at some of the players, who reached career highs in several offensive categories, at age 35 or older. Several of them were guys in the Steroid era. Bonds, McGuire, and Manny Ramirez all took PEDS. Of the others, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron and Stan Musial stand out as modern era players who went on to have good years, very late in their careers. None of those players had the luxury of filling the role of DH. Maybe Martinez is in that mold, but jeez it's hard to bet on it. One thing that really stands out to me is that he only struck out 42 times in 641 plate appearances!! With his terrific slugging percentage, that is truly remarkable. The guy is an extraordinary hitter. He might be one of the top 2 or 3 professional hitters in the game today, and just may be that rare exception to the rule. If the Sox are ready to do whatever else they need to do to build a solid contender, then a gamble that V Mart will be productive for the next 3 years, is reasonable. Frankly, if he performed at age 36, 37 and 38, I wouldn't think the 4th year would be that great of a detriment. Hell, write off the last year of a 4 year contract. It would be worth it, if the sox could contend for the next 3. The trick is that the White Sox would need to sign Martinez and still have enough room remaining to build a competitive roster. Right now, we're missing a DH, a starting caliber OF, the most important parts of a bullpen, and a mid-rotation starting pitcher, and that's on top of needing improvement from guys like Garcia and whatever rookie takes over 2b compared to last year. That's a whole lot to add if you're spending $15 million on your DH slot. Maybe you can get the bullpen guys on top of that and get yourself up to close to $30 million added, but even with that you're still holding a major hole in the middle of your starting rotation. Yeah Rodon should be up at some point this season, but you really can't count on a guy who has never thrown >130 innings to immediately take over a spot in the middle of a starting rotation on a pennant chasing team, so we still need some help there...and that's still leaving a major gaping hole in the OF. If you're spending >$50 million this offseason, then fine, we've got $10 million+ remaining for a starting pitcher and a corner OF, but it makes no sense to me to do something like "Sign Martinez as our big time DH and then sign Aoki to platoon with Viciedo in the OF" as our upgrade out there.

QUOTE (LDF @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 03:06 PM) I was, for a few weeks, like the idea of him in the outfield. then I was really thinking of whether or not he can play part time. I want a player like him in case Eaton gets hurt. in the end, he was carrying a lower avg in the situation I saw, to say pass. I'd be much more thrilled with a backup who could actually play CF if Eaton got hurt. But then I also just remembered that if we're going to have a backup to Eaton, Robin will hit him leadoff no matter how weak his bat is, so maybe it is important to give Robin some sort of a short slappy hitter for days when Eaton is out.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 02:10 PM) Clearly had his best season but still has a career wRC+ of 125. The guy can hit. Surely you can see the worry about citing his career numbers as a projection of what he'll do in his 36-38 year old seasons. (Articles showing how far most players are falling back by those ages cited here, Here,Here.)

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) Aoki has pretty much only played right field in his 3 years in ML. So he wouldn't be a great 4th outfielder. Now maybe Hahn wants Avi to play left and Aoki to play right. That could still leave Danks as the 4th outfielder and Viciedo sent packing That's still an incredibly weak sounding OF. That sounds like practically throwing in the towel to start the season if that's the OF.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 02:00 PM) He's a platooner who shouldn't get much money. These guys are undervalued, and we need an undervalued lefty bat that can take time away from Viciedo. I'd love to have him, to be honest, so long as getting him doesn't preclude Hahn from continuing to look for bigger fish on the trading market. Viciedo being on this roster in the first place is a mistake.

QUOTE (bear_brian @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 01:31 PM) There isn't a question that it is somewhat of a gamble to tender a three or four year contract to a 36 year old. However, he is not worn down by playing the field, is a switch hitter, has always made excellent contact with low strike out rates, and really fits our lineup "like a glove". In some respects you could consider him a switch hitting Harold Baines, late in his own career (who, by the way, had productive seasons as a 39 and 40 year old). He would mentor all of our young Hispanic hitters, could occasionally rest Abreu by playing a little first base, and would be a major improvement in almost every respect from Adam Dunn. My earlier suggestion for hitters in free agency was to combo Kendry Morales with Melky Cabrera, but I do not have a problem signing V-Mart, even to a four year deal. As i've said repeatedly, counting on a guy who just had by far the best year of his career to repeat those numbers at age 36 is at least a very poor gamble. Victor was actually worse on defense in UZR than Dunn was, both overall and on a per inning basis, so at the very least he's "Just as bad as Dunn" on defense". He's also "Just as bad as Dunn" was last year on baserunning. The only aspect he's an improvement over Adam Dunn is with the bats, and 2013 Victor Martinez and 2014 Adam Dunn put up nearly identical RC+ numbers. Basically, if Victor Martinez put up a similar season to what he put up in 2013 rather than his ungodly career year in 2014, he'd be almost exactly as productive as Adam Dunn was in 2014 for the White Sox in every single aspect of the game.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 01:29 PM) Still not following. So 3 years from now, with Anderson starting the year in AA this coming year, it would be rebuilding to play him? I'd say so yeah. You're counting on the money from Alexei to be freed up to make that ok, so we're playing a rookie at the back of the lineup and downgrading from the veteran who's had that position for years?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 01:18 PM) The other thing to consider is with Sale and Q signed for the long term there really isn't anyone you have to come up with big bucks the next 3 years to sign. Rodney is not going to be a guy that signs himself to something delaying free agency. The stars are aligned just like with Abreu. As long as Detroit doesn't go nuts and there are signs they are getting close to their limit, this is a great gamble to take. Abreu and Martinez would be a dynamic duo. Rodney? Autocorrect snicker.

So we'd be taking on a very large amount of salary, giving up talent, and getting a marginal upgrade over last year's performance? Not exactly giving me the hard sell is this?

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 01:06 PM) Playing your top prospect= rebuilding? Huh, didn't know that. We should just trade him then. If you're going to spend big money to bring in Victor Martinez then that would seem like a sensible move to me. $15 per over 3+ for a 36 year old DH is an "All in this year" move if I've ever seen one.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 01:02 PM) We got this fella by the name of Tim Anderson who should be pretty good. So we'll be rebuilding by breaking in a young rookie SS while paying a 39 year old DH $15 mil?

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 10:32 AM) And holding onto all your prospects is just as bad. Not all these guys are going to pan out, so you really need to scout your system and trade the guys you don't think will end up making it while their value is still high. This is what all great organizations do and we should be no different. If teams could predict such things with reasonable accuracy the league would look totally different.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 12:57 PM) Good thing Danks and Leci's 25M will be off the books. And we'll be hunting for a new SS?

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 2, 2014 -> 10:50 AM) Thoughts on trading for Chris Davis? I bring it up just because his name hasn't been brought up yet. Free agent after this season so the price shouldn't be tooo astronomical. Probably one of our top guys and a few mid range guys. Way more than I'd pay given his performance this year and contract status. We're not in a position to pay highly for guys with 1 year remaining before FA.

3 year deal and the Sox will hate that contract before the end.

If we're going to add a corner OF who doesn't have a solid bat, it'd be nice if they at least strengthened our defense.