Balta1701

That was fast.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 08:05 PM) Gotta have good defense to win, that's my gripe about Lexi, he is super flashy and makes to many mental mistakes, those are the ones that kill you He hasn't done many of those recently, despite starting slow in the field.

Ok bats... Hit the damn ball.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 07:46 PM) Are those actual numbers or tickets sold? Because they're still 15-20% off what they've been historically drawing over the last decade or so. Those are the tickets sold. They're absolutely off of capacity. They're only at 86.4% full. How horrid. The sox are at 56% of capacity and are down what, 50% from where they were a couple years ago? And don't give me "people didn't show up" to cubs games either, there's been a ton of that at the Cell this year.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 07:43 PM) Fans on both sides of Chicago really aren't buying the product anymore. Give Cubs' fans and discerning grandmothers from Cedar Rapids and Des Moines credit for being more discerning about their discretionary spending. Why, because only 35,545 are showing up per game there?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 06:33 PM) Good point on Beckham. The patience for him is pretty much gone, yet he is the type of player we are talking about turning the franchise over to. Or, for example, guys like Quentin, Ramirez, Danks, and Floyd (who, when we turned the franchise over to them in 2007/2008, had us in the playoffs the next year). Handing the franchise to young guys is not a priori a mistake. It's a mistake if you can't handle them.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 06:34 PM) So in other words, they blamed blamed the hitting coach instead of the hitter. Maybe if we stripped the hitting coach of his collective bargaining rights...

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:55 PM) So you're saying the rebuilding process would only take a couple of years? Obviously there's no guarantee, but if your starting point is an $85 million salary base, which I think is clearly sustainable for this franchise, then they ought to be back at being a contender by 2015 at the latest even with a couple mistakes. By then, every one of the bad contracts we're worried about now will have cleared itself out completely. If everything is done well, this team still has it in itself to contend next year even if a severe salary cut happens (i.e. PK14, D1, and M-56, Jackson, and Thornton are traded for the best assets we can get). They still have starting pitching, they have young bullpen arms, and the guys that they need to hold onto can still recover.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:38 PM) Exactly how many guys get $10 million their first year of arbitration? The Sox still get the same amount of years of control with Viciedo, its a question of one of those years being arb eligible vs. not being eligible. Its either 3 or 4.By 4 years from now? I'd expect that'd be pretty much standard for an all-star player, if that's what DV is. Like I said...it's whether you're "all in" this year or not. if we're actually All In, then what the manager wants shouldn't be stopping the team from making moves that win games. If we're instead all in on Ozzie Guillen, then give Ozzie the rope to hang himself and save Viciedo for a couple years from now when the rebuilding process is nearly finished.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:27 PM) Not really. He's signed next year for $2.5 million. Its the only difference is one year the Sox can renew or they given him arb. Its probably a $2 million difference considering he's going to be eligible for arb anyway eventually. His contract stated that in 2012 if he was eligible for arbitration the $2.5 million became a $3.5 million team option. And if he's as good as we hope, he will help the team win this year and make more than enough money to cover the difference. And if you're baseball decisions are based on arbitration a year or two from now, you should look for a job with the Pirates. If you buy him another year pre-arbitration year, then that pushes back his big payday by a full year, gets you another year at that $2.5 million, keeps him here for an extra year, and pushes back each arb year. Basically, here's your question. If you want the White Sox to totally rebuild and look maybe 3+ years down the road, then you want Viciedo in Charlotte until rosters expand so that he makes that Super 2 deadline, because it makes the Sox roster cheaper and better in 3 years. That money and arb-status will actually be big then, even if it looks small now. If you want the Sox to go all in this year to try to save Ozzie Guillen's job, then you want Viciedo up and playing every day right now.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:11 PM) On the flipside, the Sox are paying Viciedo $1.25 million to play in Charlotte. It would seem silly they would pay him to not play in Chicago in hopes it will save them money in a couple of years. ? It might well save $10-15 million if he's as good as we hope he is.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 05:05 PM) He has 83 days of service, they'd have to keep him down there until like August to have a shot at avoiding super 2. Which is entirely do-able, FWIW.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:59 PM) You do remember what the Sox looked like after the White Flag trade right? Prospects don't matter to the general Sox fan. They don't care about next year if there is a 75 win team on the field. For the Sox the difference between 75 and 85 win expectations are HUGE historically. The White Flag trade is a bad comparison for a number of reasons, I'm sure you know. It was only a few years after the strike, we were 3.5 games out at the time, and the return was mostly relief pitchers and guys who would contribute in 2 years. The Sox were well over .500 at the time, we're facing being well under .500 now. And furthermore...those relief pitchers would up winning the division 2 years later. Yeah, "The Kids can play" itself was a rough year. But come on, we then went on and traded Mike Cameron for this dude from Cincinnati with no position, we sold off matt Karchner for a tall former #1 pick, and however much "The Kids can play" sucked in 1999, it worked.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:57 PM) morel/Pierre back-to-back combo has hurt this offense all year in case you haven't been paying attention. And crappy defense has hurt this team all year in case you haven't been paying attention. About the only good spot has been the infield.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:54 PM) Simply, this offense isn't good enough to carry Morel's glove. And it's not good enough to overcome Teahen's glove.

QUOTE (JohnCangelosi @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:50 PM) When we're having trouble scoring runs, and Morel doesn't even have gap power, it's not the worst suggestion. Just because Lillipad hasn't played 3B doesn't mean he wouldn't play it decent to well. A lot of people thought he'd suck in the outfield and he's been fantastic out there. I'd be all for it personally, anything to get more pop in the lineup. 1. A little more pop doesn't help you if you can't field the ball. If you haven't seen Morel doing the job at 3b you haven't been paying attention. 2. Mark Teahen's .577 OPS is not "a little more pop" in the lineup.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:43 PM) I think it is great they have something to fall back on and it is once in a lifetime dream, Why not give it a shot. Well, right now...employers aren't happy about any gaps in anyone's resume..."2 years off to play baseball" might really hurt a person's chances at a different career. Just the reality of 9% unemployment America.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:43 PM) No idea. Like I said, it was a guess. Technically the government didn't do anything. I feel like I'm asking the same question here in 2 threads. Why is Obama trying to stretch executive power out in Libya when Congress would have rolled on a resolution in March if he asked for one, and why would this one thing get covered up when nothing else did. Can't figure out why it makes sense in either case. Well, I can postulate reasons, but I don't like them.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:40 PM) Seriously out of all of the people in the rotation, Jackson and Floyd would be the two worst because of how many times they take multiple innings to find their stuff. Really, the only right answer here is to trade one of them. And if you're nervous about peavy, the answer there is to drop Sale down to AAA and have him start stretching out. He clearly needs the innings right now to try to re-find his control and consistency.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:41 PM) Which is exactly why I felt attendance would have taken a big hit, especially factoring in the bad records from letting all of the kids play. There's also the other side...that a team with a new young guy that you can get excited about is a reason to come to the ballpark sometimes. K.C., Pittsburgh, and Washington are seeing this right now. Carlos was a reason to stay in your chair in 2008 and use the restroom next inning.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:39 PM) That isn't the conversation. The conversation was having guys like Allen, Hudson, and Gio around, and not making those corresponding moves, and what would have happened to the team in the in-term as they figured out how to play. Remember Konerko came back because Dunn and AJ were signed. AJ came back because the Sox decided they could win it this year and made a move to sign Dunn first. If we have Allen, Gio, and Hudson learning at the ML level, it isn't much a stretch to figure on many less wins as they would have struggles just like Gordo, Sale, and Morel have had at times. In the couterfactual, you can't change the entire basis without changing the other things that depended on the first steps. If the Sox had lost more games in the recent years, Konerko and AJ wouldn't be here now. Attendance would have dropped, and the Sox would have traded off other parts to compensate for that. OTOH...its also not a stretch to think that the fact that the Sox had 4+ cheap starting pitchers would have given them more flexibility to pay a guy like Dunn. Or...even better...the fact that the Sox held onto guys like Gio and Hudson a little longer, until teams saw what they could do at the big league level within just a year of coming up...could have massively increased what the Sox could have gotten for them. And thus...made the roster even more solid. Anyway, throwing Allen in there is sorta poisoning the well here. Hell, Konerko himself thought Dunn was being brought in to play 1b at first.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:32 PM) He will be an epic disaster in the pen. Am I the only watching the first innings of his games? Maybe he's over-stretching himself out during warmups and that's why he needs time to find the grip on everything. Of course, that's just wishful thinking. Someone needs to go to the pen but there's not a starter in the rotation who doesn't belong there, at least when Peavy is around.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:32 PM) Konerko+Buehrle+Danks+AJ+Jackson= right about the $45ish million you are talking about dropping. That was pretty much what I understood them to mean when they said "All in". You go "all in" and lose...you're done at the table and you come back another tournament.

QUOTE (Marty34 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:16 PM) Best short-term fix would be to send Morel down, platoon Lillibridge and Teahen at third, Viciedo up and bench Pierre. It's so simple that the only thing preventing it is this outfit's incredible arrogance. That's um, teh exact opposite of simple. Lillibridge has never played 3rd, and Teahen has never played 3rd well. Morel has been hitting well since the start of May, and has taken time to grow in at every step in the org. PLus, he's playing plus defense already, while Teahen would play at best bad defense there. I think calling that 3b proposal "Simple" is pretty arrogant myself.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:29 PM) I am thinking about 1.5 million if we had let Konerko walk away and been forced to eventually trade pitchers as we slid downhill. The process feeds upon itself. With two sub .500 seasons in a row, and no real expectations of improvement, plus the recession, it would have been ugly. We are getting this now while still being considered "in the race" during the pre-season. Can you imagine if we were trotting out the kids can play? If we can sustain $125 million+ on the 2.2 million we drew last year, then 1.5 million should sustain at least an $80 million+ salary.