mr_genius

People just don't recognize the economic realities involved. I mean it's great that people all think UAW workers should have superior benefits to all other comparable industries; if you think this is the case you can at least buy American cars to show your support. It’s sad that people will still blindly support these unions merely for political reasons. Reasonable adjustments to benefits certainly seem appropriate right now, it's not some evil plan to destroy people. The Japanese business models are better, they will not be bankrupt in 15 years. The reality is that companies need to adjust retirement and benefit packages when they are losing money at this type of devastating pace. If not they go bankrupt and reorganize. Doesn't matter though, GW Bush is going to go along with whatever before he gets out of office and pass this on to Obama.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 07:07 PM) You're ignoring so many other variables there that I really don't have time or ability to point them out right now yet you still refuse to acknowledge the most important overriding variable; they are losign money at a rapid pace and begging for a bailout. they are in no position to be making demands or to be stubborn. they can't compete as they are currently set up, short term, short sighted, solutions will not create long term economic stability. if these companies want to be bailed out they need to show viability otherwise there is no point in giving them tens of billions. by the way, they will be back in 2 months for another bailout.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 05:07 PM) In terms of the bank bailout I'm not certain. But I think the reality is...with the size of even the largest auto bailout packages they were talking about, $35 billion or so, if we're talking about something in the neighborhood of 2-3 million jobs, then we're talking about $10,000 a job to delay having the impact of that bankruptcy hit at a time when everything else is going to hell. Even if all it does is delay the inevitable for these companies, then having the government spend $10,000 per person to keep a couple million people working for another 2 years is a reasonable move given the fact that the federal reserve has run out of stimulus ammunition already. That's probably cheaper per job than almost anything we're going to get out of the stimulus package that the New President will be signing. It really isn't feasible. These companies are losing 6 billion per month, they need to limit their costs or they get no assistance. It's that simple, the union merely needs to accept that they will be making as much as their counterparts in the United States and have similar benefits; or they can lose their job. It's up to them. Other auto companies will take over the market share and these manufacturers make cars in the US as well. Cars will be made here in the US, just not by the UAW. last year GM and Toyota sold an equal amount of cars, but Toyota made 12 billion and GM lost like 36 billion. This is the main problem here, a bailout without effective cost cutting initiatives is pointless. These jobs are going away without them, the bailout will encourage this type of reckless business model thus adding to a bad market economy.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 03:43 PM) Im reading the pleadings and Im not sure that legally they have a leg to stand on. Madigan is arguing that under Article 5 of the Illinois Constitution the Supreme Court has jurisdiction. No where in Article 5 does it say this: In fact if I was the Governor I would move for summary judgment as it explicitly states the only way the governor may be removed: As you can see it explicitly states the way for the governor to be considered "unable to serve". This pleading is nothing more than a political move, I cant imagine the Supreme Court buying into her "disabled" argument. interesting

Where do you draw the line? Should every industry get a bailout, i'm sure they can all threat a 'great depression'. Honestly, if there is going to be another great depression these poorly designed bailouts and massive deficits are only going to make it that much more worse. They won't prevent it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 03:52 PM) Had it been designed and implemented better it might have helped, but there was no way it was going to stop the recession. The difference with these bailouts at this point is whether we're talking a recession or a depression. but this auto bailout has an equally bad design. does it really fix the economy to spend money in inefficient ways which do not accomplish their intended goals? so we should follow up a poorly designed bank bailout with a poorly designed auto bailout?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 03:38 PM) I believe I could have heard the exact same phrase after the failure of Bearstearns. We followed that advice when we let LEH fall without a bailout. That simply destroyed the entire financial system. We can debate another time whether it's a good idea to allow these companies to become to big to actually shut their doors. The reality is, they're too big to let them shut their doors, especially at this particular time in the economy. but wait, i thought the bank bailout would fix the credit market and everyone would buy cars and houses? because, as we all know, bailouts are the only way to save the economy or any industry.

QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 03:01 PM) It was down several hundred until talk of the White House not letting them fail began to circulate. So if GW Bush busts out the magic deficit spending pen (as usual) and the market goes down then I can come back and gloat i suppose. Say I was right, a internet tradition.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 03:18 PM) The problem with that logic is the house of cards. Many/most of the foreign auto companies that have factories here and abroad that make parts use similar suppliers down the chain. If you cut 50% of their orders by killing off the American auto companies, those companies go under as well. And then that even takes a shot at the foreign company. And then on top of that, you're doing it at the worst possible time for the economy as a whole. If all you did was delay their bankruptcy by 2 years, and let them fall apart in 2010, then you might avoid digging the gigantic hole in the economy by spreading the pain out over time. If the auto companies were serious about becoming viable they would have got their bailout, but they decided to play hardball and lost. They need to accept terms that will be acceptable. They need to accept pay that is equal to the successful manufacturing auto companies in the United States. The failed UAW pay structure should not be subsidized at the expense of the successful companies, why should a souther auto worker being tossing in for their overpaid Michigan counter parts? The true house of cards is the continued threats of doom and gloom if companies do not get endless bailouts. If they need to file for bankrupcy thats what they need to do. GM is burning 2 billion a month, there is no way we should be handing them billions and billions until they decide the market is good enough to restructure. When the market does pick up they will not restructure because 'it's all good now'. But when the market hits a bump again they will crash and burn once again because they have absolutely no durability.

it's up right now, Harry. like propping up corrupt unions is going to be a big boost to the markets. if anything, a passed bailout would have caused a drop.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 11:30 AM) When I bought my Civic, I knew I could get a better deal on a small car from GM or Ford. But I wasn't even going to consider a GM vehicle after the piece of CR/AP that I had in high school and after how I was treated by that dealership. Ford I might have been more open to, but I quickly narrowed my list to just the Toyota and the Honda versions, and started shopping. you don't even buy american cars but want us all to bailout these companies? if these companies are not competitive they need to fail. thats how things will adjust themselves correctly. merely tossing money into a failed system over and over does nothing.

QUOTE (jasonxctf @ Dec 11, 2008 -> 09:50 PM) i love how this somehow becomes the workers fault. the UAW demanded they make SUV's and gas guzzlers. the UAW contracts have crippled these American car companies. The UAW is a major factor. This is a fact. The executives at these companies suck too. no bailout. i don't want to subsidize these corrupt unions and incompetent executives, i don't care how much money in bribes they give to the Democrats.

stand your ground Blago! they can't make you resign, you're the governor.

QUOTE (MHizzle85 @ Dec 12, 2008 -> 01:47 PM) Ugly girls bathing in sink.=Loss for KFC Popeye's FTW. ^^^

looks like this corrupt UAW bailout is going to fall through.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 11, 2008 -> 12:57 PM) There are 2 things that could happen. Either: 1. The Illinois legislature will pass a bill saying that the Senate seat will be decided by a special election rather than the governor's appointment. I have no idea if this will need the governor's signature or what the rules are on overriding a veto in Illinois. 2. Blago will officially resign at some point in the near future, his Lt. Gov will take over, and will name a Senator untouched by this controversy (i.e. Candidate #5 would be pretty much out) who will take the seat without much debate. I think the first option is more likely, but that depends on the turnaround time of the Illinois Legislature. The one thing that will not happen is you will not have a Senator named by Blagojevich, because the Senate will refuse to seat him/her. theres no way any Blago appointment would stick. Also anyone that would accept would be crazy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 11, 2008 -> 11:37 AM) KB Toys files for bankruptcy. Merry X-Mas! They went bankrupt back in 2005 too.

So, is there going to be a special election to fill the vacant seat? Will Jessie Jackson Jr be the Democrat nominee? Oh man, all the GOP would have to do is get a decent candidate in the race and they could very well win. But thats asking a lot of the Illinois GOP, remember the Alan Keys fiasco.

QUOTE (Texsox @ Dec 10, 2008 -> 04:16 PM) Were the company's financials ever made public? We seem quick to make assumptions, although they seem right. 6 months ago Public says "Well you are the bankers, we trust you to make the correct decisions for the bank and the US." $700 billion bailout and 6 months later Public says "Well you are the bankers, we trust you to make the correct decisions for the bank and the US." They obviously don't know what they're doing and government mandates that they give out extremely risky loans just makes things that much worse. Why even have a financial system? just give out free money to everyone at every request. We'll all be super rich. These bailouts are a cancer

QUOTE (MurcieOne @ Dec 10, 2008 -> 04:52 PM) If Jesse is Sen Candidate 5... how will he spin this? That he "didn't know" that his people offered 500,000 for the senate seat? He is Senate Candidate #5 and I think you hit it exactly on the head as to what his excuse will be. He will say he had no idea there was $1,500,000 of bribes offered on his behalf. I saw his press conference and he still thinks he is getting the Senate seat from what I can tell.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 10, 2008 -> 01:48 PM) caption time! haha Blago even looks like a rat scurrying into something

The bank didn't want to give out a loan to a company that was goign under. Giving out s***ty loans that will never be paid back is a big reason we are in this whole credit crisis.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 10, 2008 -> 09:37 AM) I can't find the article now, but there was one particular example given by Fitzgerald of Blago's corruption that made me ill. Apparently, G-Rod threatened to hold back $8M in funding from a not-for-profit children's hospital somewhere in Illinois, if their CEO didn't make a $50k campaign contribution. I watched some segments on CNN, MSNBC and FOX and everytime they read the long list of offenses the entire panel would start laughing because it's so out of control and blatant. Then of course they would be like "ok, we shouldn't be laughing this is really bad in reality". This guy is unbelievably corrupt.

Oh man I hope Todd Stroger got caught trying to bribe his way into the Senate seat. No more Blago and Stroger?