FlaSoxxJim

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 20, 2005 -> 08:20 AM) I'm just pointing that out because things do happen. There are bad mofo's out there, and this guy's kid had a gun pointed to his head. Agreed. And also agreed that the upsode to this story is the family was unharmed and the bad guy not so much. I just cringe at the thought that a guy playing hero can exacerbate a situation and inadvertently put his familat at greater risk.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 20, 2005 -> 06:07 AM) Tookie Williams killed 3 people for $100. If you can hang your hat on a sample size of 1 then you have a bright future as a tobacco lawyer. You are less likely to be shot in an armed robbery if you give up your money or your stuff and don't fight the guy with a loaded gun pointed at you and your family.

Interesting and troubling to find that the FISSA courts publicly rebuked the GWB administration, Ashcroft and the FBI back in 2002 for providing misinformation to them at least 75 times in their requests for wiretaps. For the secret court to issue such a public statement shows they were pretty pissed at the way the administration was acting in trying to obtain warrants. Here's an archive of the WaPo story that ran at the time: http://foi.missouri.edu/secretcourts/seccrtrebuffs.html The rebuke specifically left open the that the FISA policies can be reviewed and changed by act of Congress if they were truly an impediment to lawful intelligence gathering, and members of Congress sympathetic to BushCo would have been willing to explore that but said Ashcroft was reluctant to do so. So, obviously relations between the administration and the FISA courts were very strained. Is this one of the reasons GWB decided to have NSA circumvent the established process? excerpts:

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 20, 2005 -> 04:00 AM) With all the whining, pouting and crying going on about this issue the folks at Kimberly Clark ( makers of Kleenex ) must be laughing all the way to the bank. With all the jerk-offs in the administration and in the GOP congress the Kleenex people are already rolling in dough. :headshake

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Dec 20, 2005 -> 03:56 AM) Once again APU is whining about his rights being violated. The government doesn't give a flying f*** about Joe Sixpack, they're out to find out what people suspected of illegal activity are talking about. So GWB has no doubt authoorized a wiretap on himself and all the fun folks around him. :rolly

Hey, this looks like the way to go. Thanks Jas and Co. I almost don't have the heart to tell you that you spelled filibister wrong. Obviously, that was Soxy's doing,

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 10:18 PM) Then they would have been accused of flip flopping and not supporting the Troops. I get that that was the strategy, and that voting records wthout a lengthy explaination as to what really transpires can be misleading. But in this specific instance, where so much is riding on the defense spending bill getting passed and where moderates on both sides actually have a voice, the amended bill could have been voted down and a big stink could have been raised pointing out the sneakiness at work. GOP leqdership would have had no choice but to strip te ANWR provision and then try to get the bill to pass.

Newsweek's Jonathan Alter breaks a big story. Guess who desperately tried to get the NYT to not run the story last week? I guess that's one way to get an invite to the White House. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10536559/site/newsweek/ excerpt:

This was disgusting to wake up to. And I am very disgusted with the Dems right now because they could have made a stand and voted down the bill as long as it had the ANWR provision in it. A revised version of the bill without ANWR in it then would have been brought to a vote and could have been passed.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 05:20 PM) I don't think anyone said she wasn't qualified. But she absolutely did get recruited and a lot of money shoved her way simply to put the (D) behind her name. Was she a Republican before her candidacy? Your comment makes it sound that way.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 04:38 PM) Keep twisting what I mean by that. I've been forced to take it to mean that we are not supposed to be critical of the president and his administration because that would just be playing partisan politics.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 03:46 PM) Which would mean spying on our journalists. Possibly. Certainly, spying on someone for reasons other that what can be justified by the needs of the GWoT.

QUOTE(bmags @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 04:15 PM) i'd like to get past all of this partison B.S. and just like to know if people think their government leaders should be held accountable if they break the law? Because I do. Not me. So long as They All Do It® , then what's the harm?

Let's add NSA director Michael Hayden to the list of people who knowingly misled Congress about the agency's activites on Bush's behalf. In October of this year Hayden told a committee investigating 9/11 that all surveillance of persons in the United States was by the FISA book. Of course this is now known to be a complete lie, as NSA opted to sidestep FISA when carrying out the surveillance orders.

QUOTE(kapkomet @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 03:56 PM) I'm getting all Tom Clancyish now... but every single conversation that takes place anywhere on earth has the potential to be overheard. Somehow. If they are monitoring certain people that are in illegal activity, and they have to act on it before they get approval, then what? Then request the warrrant after the fact within 72 hours as stipulated by FISA.

My three favorites have already been listed: A Christmas Carol (1951), It's a Wonderful Life, and A Christmas Story. Throw in all of the Rankin and Bass animated specials, Charlie Brown Christmas, and the brilliant and little-known Olive the Other Reindeer and you're all set. Pour me an eggnog and light up that yule log!

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 03:38 PM) There's no need for a President to do it. That's what's infuriating. Unless he really thought this activity had to be hidden from even the secret FISA courts.

Kap, the more I think about it the more I think you are right in that GWB didn't blow off FISA procedures simply because he's an arrogant ass. And the people in his administration as well as NSA knew FISA would have given him all he needed. The logical conclusion, if you rule out the 'being an asshole' hypothesis, is that this spying was something he did not want the FISA courts to be aware of. Just what was the nature of these surveilances that he couldn't let FISA get wind of it? Hopefully we find out soon. As for your ironclad conviction that Clinton and Bush 41 engaged in this same illegal spying activity, I don't understand how you can be so sure without any supporting evidence. Other than the "fact" that They All Do It.®

QUOTE(Milkman delivers @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 03:28 PM) If it was my house, let's just say they wouldn't be taking the guy away on a stretcher. They'd be scraping his brains off the floor. Possibly along with the brains of some of your family members.

QUOTE(juddling @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 02:50 PM) could have went the other way yes....but their action probably prevented the tragedy. if the bad guys weren't wearing masks and could be identified then they were probably going to kill them whether they complied or not. To me...i'd much rather go down swinging That seems an odd bit of logic. These two guys were going to kill 4 people so they could steal some audio equipment. Does every mugger not wearing a mask invariably kill his victims?

It's great that this particular story ended the way it did – with the good guys not being hurt and the bad guy going down. But it's completely stupid to fight an armed thief over stuff that can be replaced. This goes down another wa, and the story may include a coupel of dead family members.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 02:19 PM) I've known of her candidacy for weeks. I found out she was an amputee yesterday. Nobody in the party is talking about her missing legs. But if you wanna say its because she's all stumpy - that's your perogative. And here I was all worried about punching the ticket to Hell (again) and refrained from wondering what her 'stump speech' was going to be.

QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 01:39 PM) Rupert Holmes - Escape (The Pina Colada Song) My deep dark secret is that I really like that stupid song a lot.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Dec 19, 2005 -> 01:16 PM) Any of you have any favorite Hanukah songs? /waiting to hear Rex's response Dreidel Dreidel Dreidel, I made you out of clay. Dreidel Dreidel Dreidel, with Dreidel I will play

Face the Nation had Sens. Lindsey Graham and Joe Bidon on today, and both are taking GWB to task on teh spying. Important in that Graham is both a lawyer and a right-winger so it's good to see serious questioning of the legality by other than the Dems and the MSM. Also important because Biden was one of the three authors of the original 1978 FISA andf he makes it completely clear that GWB's actions are in violation of FISA and in no way derived from anny authority given by FISA. Video Link Biden went on to say GWB's actions were beither "legal or necessary" and completely shooots down the notion that the FISA avenues are not fast enough for emergency scenarios.